Improved Unarmed combat questions

[ogre]

I recently made a character who took the Improved unarmed strike. I was surprised that the damage was still considered subdual damage.
So that got me thinking, do monks take a -4 to hit (the penalty to make a subdual weapon do hit point damage) when they fight undead, golems and anything else that is immune to subdual damage?
Before this, I was under the assumption that when you threaten an area, your weapon must do actual damage.
Does a sap threaten?
Is a monk always doing subdual damage unless he takes a -4 penalty?

 

[Volefisk]

Before this, I was under the assumption that when you threaten an area, your weapon must do actual damage.
Does a sap threaten?
Is a monk always doing subdual damage unless he takes a -4 penalty?

You can threaten with a subdual weapon (if you are trained to use it). You can threaten with your bare fists if you have Improved Unarmed Strike (even though you are only doing subdual damage). It says this right in the description of the Improved Unarmed Strike feat.

The SRD also says that "usually, a monk's unarmed strike deals normal damage rather than subdual damage. However, she can chose to deal her damage as subdual damage when grappling."

Hope that helps.

<Volefisk>

 

[AGGEMAM]

So that got me thinking, do monks take a -4 to hit (the penalty to make a subdual weapon do hit point damage) when they fight undead, golems and anything else that is immune to subdual damage?

No, monks do 'real' damage with their unarmed strikes, however they can choose to do subdual damage while grappling. Or they can choose to make the normal damage of a unarmed strike as subdual damage, ie exchange the unarmed damage die (1d6 to 1d20) for the usual 1d2 or 1d3.

Before this, I was under the assumption that when you threaten an area, your weapon must do actual damage.

No, it just have to be a melee weapon, and if you have improved unarmed strike, your unarmed strikes are considered normal melee weapons.

Does a sap threaten?

Yes, as all other melee weapons.

Is a monk always doing subdual damage unless he takes a -4 penalty?

No, read above.

 

[ogre]

Ahh, thx for the input.
So by what you are telling me:
Monks do normal damage, but anyone else who takes the Improved unarmed strike feat, still only does subdual damage. Is that correct?

 

[AGGEMAM]

Monks do normal damage, but anyone else who takes the Improved unarmed strike feat, still only does subdual damage. Is that correct?

That is correct.

You see the monk's unarmed strike class ability is much, much more powerful than the improved unarmed strike feat. Personally I don't know why they did not call it superior unarmed strike instead.

Oh ... yeah ... and btw, if you wear gauntlets the damage from your unarmed strikes is normal, and in that respect note that most armors in the PHB actually comes with gauntlets.

 

[Ranger REG]

do monks take a -4 to hit (the penalty to make a subdual weapon do hit point damage) when they fight undead, golems and anything else that is immune to subdual damage?

Nope. Monks can inflict normal damage without penalty against creatures who are immune to critical hits. They simply cannot use their stunning attack ability on them.

Before this, I was under the assumption that when you threaten an area, your weapon must do actual damage.
Does a sap threaten?

Yes, it does.

Is a monk always doing subdual damage unless he takes a -4 penalty?

The monk can inflict either normal or subdual damage without penalty. The monk also have that same choice when grappling ... at no penalty.

After all, a monk supposed to be an adept at using his body as a lethal weapon.

 

[Dr. Zoom]

Re: Re: Improved Unarmed combat questions

No, monks do 'real' damage with their unarmed strikes, however they can choose to do subdual damage while grappling. Or they can choose to make the normal damage of a unarmed strike as subdual damage, ie exchange the unarmed damage die (1d6 to 1d20) for the usual 1d2 or 1d3.

This is incorrect. Monks can choose to do normal or subdual damage with any attack with no penalty to the attack roll. In either case, they use their unarmed damage die. Check PH page 39.

 

[AGGEMAM]

Re: Re: Re: Improved Unarmed combat questions

Monks can choose to do normal or subdual damage with any attack with no penalty to the attack roll. In either case, they use their unarmed damage die. Check PH page 39.

If you can read that from what it says on page 39, all the more power to you. However, it does not say such a thing, ie that you can choose to do subdual damage normally, it only mentions that if you grapple. Since it doesn't say so, I use the strictest interpretation of the rules. If you make it more relaxed, that is fine by me, but the actual rules does not support in full either intrepretation.

 

[dcollins]

Re: Re: Improved Unarmed combat questions

You can threaten with your bare fists if you have Improved Unarmed Strike (even though you are only doing subdual damage). It says this right in the description of the Improved Unarmed Strike feat.

It does not say that in the specified feat description. The feat says that you are considered "armed", and that no AOOs are caused by your unarmed strikes, but those are separate issues -- a change in threatened area is not mentioned at all.

However, it does not say such a thing, ie that you can choose to do subdual damage normally, it only mentions that if you grapple.

From the Official D&D FAQ (v. 5/10/02), p. 5:

Can monks deal subdual damage with unarmed strikes
without grappling? If so, do they suffer a –4 attack penalty,
as with any other normal-damage attack?

Usually, a monk’s unarmed strikes deal normal damage, but
a monk can choose to deal subdual damage instead with no
penalty on her attack roll. A monk has the same choice to deal
normal or subdual damage while grappling (See Grapple on
page 137 of the Player’s Handbook.)

 

[AGGEMAM]

Re: Re: Re: Improved Unarmed combat questions

It does not say that in the specified feat description. The feat says that you are considered "armed", and that no AOOs are caused by your unarmed strikes, but those are separate issues -- a change in threatened area is not mentioned at all.

Oh yes, if you're armed you actually threaten an area, if you're unarmed you don't.

And for the FAQ quote, I knew that the Sage took the more relaxed interpretation, but still if you can directly read that from what it says on page 39 in the PHB, I guess you can build space ships too. (No pun, intended).

(EDIT: Somehow I knew you were going to reply to this thread. ;-) )