Improved Unarmed Strike and 2H weapons

[DwarvenDog]

This question has just come up IMC:


A fighter has Improved Unarmed Strike and Two-Weapon Fighting. He wields a greataxe. Can he use headbutts/kicks/stomps/etc. as his off-hand attack?

If not, can he use it as a secondary natural attack? (like some monsters do who also wield weapons.)



why or why not? I'm leaning toward "not" but would like to back it up.


thanks in advance.

 

[Klaus]

No.

A monk can, though. The monk's description specifically mentions that he can use his unarmed strike even if both hands are holding something. So a Fighter X/Monk 1 could wield a greataxe and use his unarmed strike as a secondary weapon.

 

[Infiniti2000]

A fighter has Improved Unarmed Strike and Two-Weapon Fighting. He weilds a greataxe. Can he use headbutts/kicks/stomps/etc. as his off-hand attack?

Yes. Per the combat section:

Unarmed Attacks
Striking for damage with punches, kicks, and head butts is much like attacking with a melee weapon, except for the following...

No where is unarmed strike restricted to fists, or even identified as fists. This is a common misconception, however, as Klaus has made.

If not, can he use it as a secondary natural attack? (like some monsters do who also weild weapons.)

No. The unarmed strike is not a natural weapon.

 

[moritheil]

Yes. Per the combat section:
No where is unarmed strike restricted to fists, or even identified as fists. This is a common misconception, however, as Klaus has made.

I'm not sure that he's actually making the error you describe (that all unarmed strikes must be punches.) He seems to be arguing that only the monk has the ability to deliver blows with any body part.

Now, if only the writers of Kensai would have realized that monks do not land blows exclusively with their fists . . .

 

[glass]

This question has just come up IMC: A fighter has Improved Unarmed Strike and Two-Weapon Fighting. He weilds a greataxe. Can he use headbutts/kicks/stomps/etc. as his off-hand attack?

Yes, he can.

Unarmed Attacks: Striking for damage with punches, kicks, and head butts is much like attacking with a melee weapon, except for the following:

(emphasis mine).

He'll take TWF penalties, of course.

If not, can he use it as a secondary natural attack? (like some monsters do who also weild weapons.)

No, unarmed strikes are not natural weapons.


glass.

 

[DwarvenDog]

I'm looking through the SRD and the only place it specifically mentions being able to use unarmed strikes while both hands are occupied is in the Monk class description. That's sort of annoying. I think that makes it seem like only Monks can do it.

I think the precedent I'll use is the one for armor spikes. Light weapon that can be used as an off-hand attack regardless of primary weapon. Can't use both armor spikes AND another "off-hand" weapon in the same round.

I definitely see the logic that IUA is not a natural attack for purposes of secondary attacks.


Thanks, folks.

 

[Nonlethal Force]

I realize this isn't from a rules perspective but from one of logic, so please take that into consideration:

The fact that you gain your STR x 1.5 on a two handed attack seems to reason that the two-handed attack is including the offhand attack as part of the primary attack.

How many times have we heard the rationale that the two handed attack is balanced with TWF because a person attack with a greataxe gets 1.5 x their STR while the TWF gets 1 x STR + .5 x STR = 1.5 STR?

Personally, while the rules might not really say it ... I would say that unless a character is a monk or has improved unarmed strike that by using a two-handed strike they are already using their ability to do an offhand strike as part of it.

Like I said, this is an argument based on logic, not necessarily the rules. I understand that.

Now, since the OP said that the fighter has IUS ... that muddies the water. I'd still want to say that they used up their offhand stirke as part of the two-handed weapon strike. But I'm less sure than in the case w/o IUS.

 

[Klaus]

And here's a tricky question:

Fighter is carrying a longspear. He threatens the squares 10' away from him with the longspear. But he has Improved Unarmed Strike. Does he also threaten the squares adjacent to him with his unarmed strike (assuming he can use kicks or somesuch to deliver said attacks)?

 

[Nonlethal Force]

To this I would say yes because they have IUS.

Their hands are occupied with the spear and is the only option to use for AoOs at the 10 foot range.

Their body (excluding the hands) is occupied with the space immediately around them and IUS is the only option for the AoO at the 5' range.

So long as they make sure that they use the appropriate weapon for the appropriate AoO, sure! And if they are eligible for multiple AoOs in a single round they can even use the longspear and the IUS in the same round so long as they respect the ranges for the appropriate AoOs.

 

[IcyCool]

And here's a tricky question:

Fighter is carrying a longspear. He threatens the squares 10' away from him with the longspear. But he has Improved Unarmed Strike. Does he also threaten the squares adjacent to him with his unarmed strike (assuming he can use kicks or somesuch to deliver said attacks)?

If he takes the two-weapon fighting penalties while attacking with his longspear, yes. If you rule "fighting in this way" differently, then YMMV.