D&D (2024) Improved War Magic rules interpretation

[UngainlyTitan]

But as a single class Eldritch Knight no spells carry the modifier "count as a Wizard spell for you". The EK prepares spells from the Wizard list, but he is not a Wizard.

It is clear RAI that it at least applies to the spells you prepare as an Eldritch Knight.

The question is really about for example Darkness from a Drow species, or Protection from Good and Evil from Magic Initiate-Cleric, or Tasha's Hideous Laughter from the Fey Touched feat or Sleep from a Sorcerer multiclass. All these spells are on the Wizard list.

I would say yes, why make life difficult for yourself, this is a high level character and these are not gamebreaking.

 

[Weiley31]

As a DM, I would rule that ANY spells you got from racial features would still qualify for the EK's Improved War Magic. Any feats that would let ya take a lvl 1/2 spell from the Wizard spell list would also count as well.

 

[Charlaquin]

But as a single class Eldritch Knight no spells carry the modifier "count as a Wizard spell for you". The EK prepares spells from the Wizard list, but he is not a Wizard.

It is clear RAI that it at least applies to the spells you prepare as an Eldritch Knight.

The question is really about for example Darkness from a Drow species, or Protection from Good and Evil from Magic Initiate-Cleric, or Tasha's Hideous Laughter from the Fey Touched feat or Sleep from a Sorcerer multiclass. All these spells are on the Wizard list.

Yeah, I’d say those count.

 

[Plaguescarred]

Your Eldritch Knight Fighter could potentially get spells that count as Wizard spell for you via Feat, Feature, Multiclassing, Magic Item etc

 

[ECMO3]

Another thing about EK is it appears War Magic works with Action Surge since it is the attack action, not the magic action, which means you could fire off a spell with action surge too.

 

[Plaguescarred]

But if your Eldritch Knight gain a spell from another class spell list than Wizard without saying it count as a Wizard spell for you, it would not be eligible for Improved War Magic though.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

I think @Charlaquin gave the best explanation.

Personally, I would say you can cast spells that are on the Wizard list, that you have.
You can cast spells that are 1st level, or 2nd level, or 1st level that are cast at 2nd level.
And that's it.

But I am not too worried about the edge cases on an 18th level ability. If you've made it to 18th level, and you're worried about the synergies (because if they are MC synergies, that means you are actually at least 19th level), then I am sure that there are a lot of other game-breaking issues that might already be at play that are more worrying than this one.

 

[ECMO3]

I think @Charlaquin gave the best explanation.

Personally, I would say you can cast spells that are on the Wizard list, that you have.
You can cast spells that are 1st level, or 2nd level, or 1st level that are cast at 2nd level.
And that's it.

But I am not too worried about the edge cases on an 18th level ability. If you've made it to 18th level, and you're worried about the synergies (because if they are MC synergies, that means you are actually at least 19th level), then I am sure that there are a lot of other game-breaking issues that might already be at play that are more worrying than this one.

MC is not a concern (since this is 18th level). It is spells through feats and species that are the real concern although the rules would apply for MC as well. The character in question has the following from features other than EK spellcasting:

Truestrike-Magic Initiate(Wizard) (works, becuase on the Wizard list)
Firebolt-Magic Initiate(Wizard) (works because on the Wizard list)
Tasha's Hideous Laughter-Magic Initiate(Wizard) (works because it is on Wizard list)
Dancing Lights-Drow (works because on the Wizard list)
Faerie Fire-Drow (does not work, not on Wizard list)
Darkness-Drow (works, on Wizard list)
Levitate-Drow High Magic (works, on Wizard list)
Detect Magic-Drow High Magic (works, on Wizard list)
Dissonant Whispers-Fey Touched (does not work, not on Wizard list)
Cause Fear-Shadow touched (works on Wizard list)
Invisibility-Shadow Touched (works on Wizard list)
Command-Magic Initiate(cleric) (does not work, not on Wizard list)
Guidance-Magic Initiate(cleric) (does not work, not on Wizard list)

As an aside all of these spells are on Charisma, not Intelligence. The PC has a 20 Charisma and an 8 Intelligence.

Dissonant Whispers is the one they really want to cast as part of the attack action. Hit with an attack then cast DW with disadvantage on the save and then follow it up with Warcaster-Cause Fear as a reaction when the bad guy runs away, keeping him away. You still have action surge and a bonus action, each also potentially with a spell (as long as you only use one slot).

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

Dissonant Whispers is the one they really want to cast as part of the attack action. Hit with an attack then cast DW with disadvantage on the save and then follow it up with Warcaster-Cause Fear as a reaction when the bad guy runs away, keeping him away. You still have action surge and a bonus action, each also potentially with a spell (as long as you only use one slot).

The RAW is Wizard spells, so I would say that those are spells on the Wizard list.

But again, at that tier of play, I don't think it's going to break the game to let him cast dissonant whispers.

So if y'all are rules sticklers, naw. Can't do it. But IMO, no biggie. At 18th level, allowing a dissonant whispers doesn't even register on my list of concerns.

Have fun!


ETA- I assume the restriction is there because they probably gamed out the wizard spells of 1st and 2nd level, and didn't want someone coming up with a weird combo they hadn't thought of that in 38 steps would lead to PunPun, or something.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

We ran into two questions today about the EK's 18th level ability. The controversy is centered on the underlined:

Improved War Magic: When you take the Attack action on your turn, you can replace two of the attacks with a casting of one of your level 1 or level 2 Wizard spells that has a casting time of an action.


First: What spells qualify? It states "Wizard spells" not just "spells" or "spells you obtained with your EK spellcasting feature". So can you cast spells you acquired from a multiclass, feat or species. My answer was - Yes as long as those spells are on the Wizard spell list.

Yes, I would say if you have learned a Wizard spell from some other source, that qualifies. But never any spell that is not a Wizard spell, no matter what source it came from.

Second: Can you upcast those spells? It says 1st or 2nd level spells but not 1st or 2nd level slot, so can I upcast beyond 2nd level? My answer was: No, you can cast a 1st level spell with a 2nd level slot but you can't upcast to 3rd level or beyond.

Agreed. You can upcast a 1st level Wizard spell to be 2nd level, or cast either a 1st or 2nd level Wizard spell as normal, but never any other spell. (The original War Magic feature allows you to cast a Wizard cantrip in exchange for one of your attacks, which is a separate consideration.)

Thoughts on RAW or RAI?

This seems to be a pretty clear case where RAW and RAI are actually the same (rather refreshing, when it comes to 5e.)