Improving 3.X Rogue's combat abilities

[Dannyalcatraz]

That's the thing- we don't want Sneak Attack to work all the time, we just want to improve their combat ability a little bit.

Nobody in the group has a problem with Sneak Attack being of limited use, and in fact, we like its limitations. Sneak Attack's increased power in 4Ed is one of the things our group cited as a grounds for rejecting 4Ed.

This is why we started talking about a way to slightly improve their normal damage output versus discrete targets by finding a weakness.

IOW, allowing them to use their skills to detect physical or stylistic flaws in a target's defenses, and then bypassing some of them. This reinforces both the "skill monkey" AND the "intelligent fighter" niches.

 

[Starbuck_II]

Nobody in the group has a problem with Sneak Attack being of limited use, and in fact, we like its limitations. Sneak Attack's increased power in 4Ed is one of the things our group cited as a grounds for rejecting 4Ed.

Wait, what?

Sneak Attack in 4th edition is 1/rd.
Sneak Attack in 3rd edition is as many times as you can attack and still meet conditions (deny dex/flanking)/rd.

Sneak attack is weaker in 4th not stronger. You confuse me.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Sneak attack is weaker in 4th not stronger. You confuse me.

Its stronger in that it is available for use against more targets- few, if any critters are immune to SA.

 

[Starbuck_II]

So you mean it is more versatile. It has more uses against more things.

Power is like damage/useage.

3.5/3.0 is more powerful. But then again alternate class featrures let you sneak attack everything making it just as versatile as 4th.
Nothing is immune in non-core.

4th edition is more versatile: nothing is immune in Core.

Good now terms are defined. We know what you want.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

So you mean it is more versatile. It has more uses against more things.

Power is like damage/useage.

An increase in versatility is an increase in power.

Good now terms are defined. We know what you want.

Actually, if you reread my initial post, I never talked about improving Sneak Attack in particular, just the Rogue's overall "combat ability."

In addition, all of the mechanics proposed in that post were all about the Rogue being able to lessen the amount of defenses he'd have to contend with when attacking...IOW, improving his probability of dealing damage without adding dice.

 

[Sagawork_Studios]

Complete Scoundrel?

I hope this helps, but it does fall under your original argument of not necessarily being a viable choice for gamers:

There is something similar in the Skill Tricks section of the Complete Scoundrel, specifically: Spot the Weak Point.

Skill Tricks are purchasable with 2 skill points as long as the PC meets the prerequisites for it. In the case of 'Spot the Weak Point' requires 12 ranks in Spot and with a spot attempt (DC=target's AC) made during combat as a standard action. If successful, your next attack is made as a touch attack.

I don't know if it is allowable, but coupled with...

'Point it Out (Spot, 8 Ranks) When you make successful spot check, you can spend an immediate action to grant a single ally a Free Spot Check (with a +2 circumstance bonus) to spot the same thing.'

...could make the weak spot transferrable to one ally for their next round. That is of course, the ally spends a standard action looking (but at +2) for the sweet spot the good rogue is shouting about.

So depending on how you interperet the rules, you can have an opponent forced to use his touch AC against 2 or more PCs.

Example: Rogue has 'Spot the Weak Point' and 'Point it Out' Skill Tricks. Ally1 through 3 are untrained in either Skill Trick, but have varying ranks in spot.

Round 1
Rogue: Spot the Weak Point vs target AC. Success. Immediate action to point it out to Ally1.
Ally1: Spot vs target AC with +2 bonus. Success.
Ally2: Attack vs Normal AC
Ally3: Attack vs Normal AC

Round 2
Rogue: Spot the Weak Point vs target AC. Success. Immediate action to point it out to Ally2
Ally1: Attack vs Touch AC
Ally2: Spot vs target AC with +2 bonus. Success.
Ally3: Attack vs Normal AC

Round 3:
Rogue: Spot the Weak Point vs target AC. Success. Immediate action to point it out to Ally3
Ally1: Attack vs Normal AC
Ally2: Attack vs Touch AC
Ally3: Spot vs target AC with +2 bonus. Success.

Round 4:
Rogue: Delays until after Ally3
Ally1: Attack vs Normal AC
Ally2: Attack vs Normal AC
Ally3: Attack vs Touch AC
Rogue: Attack vs Touch AC. Opponent Death. Yay!

The argument to my interpretation of 'Point it Out' allowing untrained Skill Trick-ers to use Spot the Weak Point is thus: If Spot the Weak Point is a requirement for all to benefit, why would a character take Point it Out at all when he could use Aid Another to assist a spot? The philosophy of Skill Tricks are that they are better than normal skills but not as good as feats. (Though I am happy to concede this if someone wants to constructively critique this.) This goes a step further as the Rogue becomes the key to taking down a hard to hit opponent even if he cannot land enough damage to do so himself. (In ugh, WoWspeak, this is a debuff )

I love Rogues. There are just so many things you can do with them. I have never seen them as a massive damage dealers but as an opportunist who exploit any opening mercilessly. Use Device=cool. Bluff=more cool.

I love monks too, but that's another story.

 

[concerro]

I never thought rogues are supposed be good in combat. They are opportunist, which is what sneak attack is based around. Their contribution to the team is skills. Some things just can't be done with magic or swords.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

I hope this helps, but it does fall under your original argument of not necessarily being a viable choice for gamers:

There is something similar in the Skill Tricks section of the Complete Scoundrel, specifically: Spot the Weak Point. <snip lots of good info>

First, welcome to the boards!

Second, I had completely forgotten about skill tricks- I'll definitely have to check those out to make sure that those work the way you suggest (not calling you a liar or anything- just double-checking).

I love Rogues. There are just so many things you can do with them. I have never seen them as a massive damage dealers but as an opportunist who exploit any opening mercilessly. Use Device=cool. Bluff=more cool.

I love monks too, but that's another story.

and

I never thought rogues are supposed be good in combat. They are opportunist, which is what sneak attack is based around. Their contribution to the team is skills. Some things just can't be done with magic or swords.

I love Rogues & Monks too- check out my sig- and agree that Rogues aren't supposed to challenge warriors for dishing damage round by round. Their combat prowess is supposed to be about the devastating strike to a foe's soft bits from an unexpected quarter...resulting in distraction, disablement, or death.

That's what launched me on this little tangent- since they're looking for unconventional strikes, they should be good at finding weaknesses in a foe's defenses. Even if a foe who is immune to SA damage probably still has a chink in his armor that can be exploited.

 

[irdeggman]

The skill trick option sounds like a better way to go.

If there isn't already one that covers the situation then something along the lines of Spot the Weakness only tie in a Knowledge skill (as well as the Spot requirement) and then use it a standard action to give the sneak attack bonus to the rogue's next attack (similar to the benefit from Feinting). This type of mechanic would allow a sneak attack, but at a cost (i.e., must wait a round in order to do the attack since it would require a standard action to "set it up"). I've always liked the concept of "setting things up" by taking a round to look things over (like aiming a weapon from the Alternity rules).

 

[milo]

Take the feat Educated from eberron and knowledge devotion from complete champion. Your knowledge check gives you a bonus up to +5 att and dam. The skill trick collector of stories gives you a +5 to these checks. At 3rd level you should easily be able to get a +2 or +3 on every attack and on damage.

Forgot to mention that you can get weapon crystals that give you the ability to sneak attack undead and golems.