Improving and Changing The Assassin

[Rystil Arden]

A couple years ago I posted my alt assasin on these boards.

Same BAB (Rogue)
Same HD (d6 Rogue)
Same Saves (Ref Good, rest Poor)
Same Skills (4 + Int, same list)
No Spells
Sneak Attack +7d6 over 10 levels (the 3 levels you don't get sneak attack damage, you get nifty assasin ability)

Unfortunately, I honestly don't remember the nifty assasin abilities. I prefer modular PrCs which force choice abilities, so I think there was at least one level where you had to choose from a list of abilities. Here's some examples:

1: Sneak Attack +1d6, poison-use
2: Uncanny Dodge, Ability*
3: Sneak Attack +2d6
4: Sneak Attack +3d6
5: Sneak Attack +4d6, Improved Uncanny Dodge
6: Ability*
7: Sneak Attack +5d6
8: Sneak Attack +6d6
9: Sneak Attack +7d6
10: Ability*

*- There were a few paths, along with some nice misc assasin abilities.

-Poison Path-
A. Poison Resistance- you gain a bonus to save against poison equal to half your Assasin level (round down).
B. Poison Specialist- there is a 50% chance poison you apply to a weapon (and then wield) will remain on the blade an additional round (allowing you to strike without reapplying).
C. Poison Master- You can distill/extract a more powerful form of a poison. This requires 1 hour of uninterrupted work and access to an alchemist's lab as well as 2 vials of the poison. The resulting single vial of poison has its initial and secondary DC improved by 2. Additionally, your Specialist ability is always 100% when you use these poisons.

-Death Path-
A. Death Attack- As, DMG Assasin.
B. Quicken Death Attack- 1/day you may make a Death Attack after only 1 round of study.
C. Marked for Death- 1/week you may study a subject and launch your Death Attack anytime during the next week. You may not use this ability with Quicken Death Attack. If you study someone else, you lose the original target.

-Misc-
Improved Evasion- Requires Evasion.
Sneak Attack +1d6 (can be taken more than once)
Provaceur Skills- You get the ability to take 10 even under adverse conditions with Hide, Move Silently, and Disguise.

Something along those lines...

Technik

So, umm, don't you think the fact that this build could get 10d6 SA for 10 levels is a bit...umm...powerful?

 

[Technik4]

So, umm, don't you think the fact that this build could get 10d6 SA for 10 levels is a bit...umm...powerful?

The entire point of a PrC (imo) is to specialize a character while hampering versatility. A 20 rog will have 3 more special abilties, and 40 more skill points (in potentially more varied skills) than a 10 Rog/10 Alt.Ass. If you went all Sneak Attack, you have +5d6 Sneak Attack damage and poison-use over the rogue.

Personally, while 5d6 more damage on every sneak is powerful, I think giving up the rogue stuff is pretty weighty. 2 more maxed skills (20 pts in each) and 3 feat (or stronger-than-feat abilities) equate to 5d6 Sneak Attack damage, especially if you are not in a combat-heavy D&D game. +1d6 Sneak Attack damage qualifies as 'stronger-than-feat' in my book, and the skill points are easily more powerful as well.

Sneak Attack itself is sufficiently hampered against many types (and templates) of creatures. All the previous requirements also remain, namely that you must be evil.

"The Assasin is the master of dealing quick, lethal blows. Their training in anatomy, stealth, poison, and the dark arts allow them to carry out missions of death with shocking, terrifying precision." -DMG pg 180

Does it really make sense that the Assasin as written has a Sneak Attack ability that is just as powerful as the Rogue's?

Technik

 

[Rystil Arden]

The entire point of a PrC (imo) is to specialize a character while hampering versatility. A 20 rog will have 3 more special abilties, and 40 more skill points (in potentially more varied skills) than a 10 Rog/10 Alt.Ass. If you went all Sneak Attack, you have +5d6 Sneak Attack damage and poison-use over the rogue.

Personally, while 5d6 more damage on every sneak is powerful, I think giving up the rogue stuff is pretty weighty. 2 more maxed skills (20 pts in each) and 3 feat (or stronger-than-feat abilities) equate to 5d6 Sneak Attack damage, especially if you are not in a combat-heavy D&D game. +1d6 Sneak Attack damage qualifies as 'stronger-than-feat' in my book, and the skill points are easily more powerful as well.

Sneak Attack itself is sufficiently hampered against many types (and templates) of creatures. All the previous requirements also remain, namely that you must be evil.

"The Assasin is the master of dealing quick, lethal blows. Their training in anatomy, stealth, poison, and the dark arts allow them to carry out missions of death with shocking, terrifying precision." -DMG pg 180

Does it really make sense that the Assasin as written has a Sneak Attack ability that is just as powerful as the Rogue's?

Technik

Wow, I really don't think I can talk to you about balance then. Thought exercise: If allowing a full Sneak Attack in a PrC was not totally unbalanced, even if they get nothing else, why have WotC and all the other d20 companies I know of avoided this? My answer is because it is just as imbalanced as giving out bonus feats faster than the fighter or caster levels faster than a base casting class (imagine a PrC that gave BAB +0 and all bad saves, plus 0 Skill Points + Int bonus, but gave out 2 levels of wizard spellcasting per level. Heck, I would take it!).

 

[Nifft]

caster levels faster than a base casting class (imagine a PrC that gave BAB +0 and all bad saves, plus 0 Skill Points + Int bonus, but gave out 2 levels of wizard spellcasting per level.

*cough* Ur-Priest, Blighter, Nar Demonbinder, and uh... that one from Civ that grants you spellcasting but only from one Domain, Charisma based.

Ur-Priest and Blighter have been re-printed, and WotC had their chance to fix the caster progression, but they did not.

-- N

 

[Rystil Arden]

*cough* Ur-Priest, Blighter, Nar Demonbinder, and uh... that one from Civ that grants you spellcasting but only from one Domain, Charisma based.

Ur-Priest and Blighter have been re-printed, and WotC had their chance to fix the caster progression, but they did not.

-- N

Ah, but they start again at the beginning, and get few spells with which to work, so its more than fair (plus they require that you not have more of those spells from another source). By 2 levels of wizard spellcasting per level, I meant a PrC that has "+2 to level of existing class." There's a big difference.

 

[Technik4]

Thought exercise: If allowing a full Sneak Attack in a PrC was not totally unbalanced, even if they get nothing else, why have WotC and all the other d20 companies I know of avoided this?

You must be right. If it hasn't been done before then it must be imbalanced. Here's a thought exercise: Why would there be a PrC that gave bonus feats faster than a fighter when that is what a fighter is all about? As a corrollary: Is Sneak Attack dice what the rogue is all about?

Technik

 

[Rystil Arden]

You must be right. If it hasn't been done before then it must be imbalanced. Here's a thought exercise: Why would there be a PrC that gave bonus feats faster than a fighter when that is what a fighter is all about? As a corrollary: Is Sneak Attack dice what the rogue is all about?

Technik

Is Sneak Attack damage what the rogue is all about? As much as fighters are only about bonus feats.

Giving full sneak attack damage is preposterous. I'll make a poll to show you.

 

[Technik4]

Giving full sneak attack damage is preposterous. I'll make a poll to show you.

Saying the world is round is preposterous. I'll make a poll to show you.

Technik

 

[Rystil Arden]

Saying the world is round is preposterous. I'll make a poll to show you.

Technik

Well if you'd rather be productive than asinine, go vote that your class is not overpowered to prevent the poll from remaining at 100% who agree with me (so far).

 

[Technik4]

I was being sarcastic. I think telling someone their idea is not balanced because:

A) It hasn't been done before.

and

B) A 1-sided poll asking if people agree with me turns up a few responses in my favor

is asinine. If you really want to be productive, why don't you explain why you feel it would not be balanced. Despite this heretical idea, I do have some idea of balance in 3.x (or, if that is impossible to conveive given my idea, why don't you pretend?).

Technik