Improving and Changing The Assassin

[gamecat]

I was being sarcastic. I think telling someone their idea is not balanced because:

A) It hasn't been done before.

and

B) A 1-sided poll asking if people agree with me turns up a few responses in my favor

is asinine. If you really want to be productive, why don't you explain why you feel it would not be balanced. Despite this heretical idea, I do have some idea of balance in 3.x (or, if that is impossible to conveive given my idea, why don't you pretend?).

Technik

Well, is a sneak attack hard to set up? Not in particular. You're an invisibility spell away from one. A scroll of greater invisibility costs 875 gp (at 7th caster level). Assuming a 10th rogue/10th munchssassin, 875 gp for +29d6 (assuming all three attacks hit, a good possiblity given the rules for fighting while invisible, leading to an average of +136.5 damage?) for 7 rounds? Seems a little overblown.

Yeah, dude. Your class is preposterous.

I also find Rystil's argument about a lack of precedent to this idea a valid one. If this idea is so logical, why hasn't it been sprung upon?

 

[Rystil Arden]

I started out trying a balance argument, but you are correct in assuming that I believed you to be out of touch with balance after your first responses.

Basically, unless you are playing a game where there is nearly no combat (in which case all balance in D&D falls apart, so this is a fine assumption), just about any Rogue build in existence would have to be an idiot not to take your version of the Prestige Class. I'm not saying that it is impossible to build a roleplaying-only Rogue for which this wouldn't be a case because the existence of such a build is besides the point.

While creating a new idea that hasn't been done before is obviously not a bad thing, you have maliciously twisted my statement to try and use an ad absurdum argument to make it seem that I was arguing this. What I said was that breaking an established power level for a certain special feature (such as Sneak Attack or spellcasting ot bonus feats) is extremely unwise. So I was never arguing against new ideas, but of super-powering old abilities at little opportunity cost. It seems that you are quite perceptive as to my arguments and views based on some of your above statements, so I am going to guess that you knew that already and were trying to twist my words to make them seem absurd.

 

[Technik4]

Assuming a 10th rogue/10th munchssassin, 875 gp for +29d6 (assuming all three attacks hit, a good possiblity given the rules for fighting while invisible, leading to an average of +136.5 damage?) for 7 rounds?

+29d6 for 3 hits? I don't understand why it isn't +45d6

Assuming a 20 rogue with the same way of getting all of his sneak attacks in he would get +30d6.

Assuming we have a Rogue who chose Crippling Strike (why? Why not? Rogues like combat too), the comparison should go

20 Rogue +10d6 Sneak Attack each hit, approx 105 Sneak Attack based damage, 6 Str damage

10 Rog/10 Alt.Ass +15d6 Sneak Attack each hit, approx 157 Sneak Attack based damage

I'm sure it would be easy to point out that the PrC rogue could also get crippling strike, however for the majority of his career (assuming he's eating those PrC levels up) he won't have the rogue special ability.

So at the very end of a round, against a foe that can be affected by Sneak Attack, if both of our hypothetical characters hit each time, and got Sneak Attack damage each time, the one that took a PrC based around killing people (and is evil to boot) does 50% more damage.

The point of this PrC improvement was to make Assasins more deadly. More deadly than what? More deadly than they are at present, more deadly than rogues? At what cost? Oh, the 3 special abilities and 40 skill points.

Further, the nature of this proposed change makes running an NPC Assasin much easier. You don't need to worry about spells and even a lower-level assasin can be seen as more deadly (when you break out the d6 bag). Fighter/Rogues also can take this PrC as a way to catch up to single-classed rogues' Sneak Attack damage. Evil ones, that is.

I also find Rystil's argument about a lack of precedent to this idea a valid one. If this idea is so logical, why hasn't it been sprung upon?

I never said it was logical. I said it was an idea I posted on these boards a couple years ago.

Technik

 

[Technik4]

you have maliciously twisted my statement to try and use an ad absurdum argument to make it seem that I was arguing this.

No, you maliciously dismissed my idea without explaining why you felt it was absurd.

What I said was that breaking an established power level for a certain special feature (such as Sneak Attack or spellcasting ot bonus feats) is extremely unwise.

I invite you to re-read your post from a few hours ago, where you said no such thing. You may have intended to say that, but you did not.

It seems that you are quite perceptive as to my arguments and views based on some of your above statements, so I am going to guess that you knew that already and were trying to twist my words to make them seem absurd.

I did not intend any malice. Any attempt to make you seem absurd was probably a reflex at being immediately dismissed instead of discussed (or argued) with.

Technik

 

[Rystil Arden]

Hmmm...people are starting to think you are trolling. I personally don't think so, but of course, asking you won't help (a troll wouldn't admit it of course ).

 

[Technik4]

I'm not trolling. Although I haven't posted in quite a while (and even longer with any regularity) I used to frequent this forum and enjoyed bouncing ideas for new game elements around.

Technik

 

[Rystil Arden]

I'm not trolling. Although I haven't posted in quite a while (and even longer with any regularity) I used to frequent this forum and enjoyed bouncing ideas for new game elements around.

Technik

Yeah, it definitely seemed to me that you were legitimately testing out this option, not trolling. I think that we just disagree strongly on balance in 3.x. I'm guessing you play a lot of games where combat comes up only every other session or so? For something like that, your views of balance would make a lot more sense than they do to me.

 

[Technik4]

For something like that, your views of balance would make a lot more sense than they do to me.

I honestly think you are not really considering the idea of a PrC that could give more than 5 SA as balanced (given theme, restriction, or trade-offs) more than it is some deep differing view of balance.

Technik

 

[Rystil Arden]

I honestly think you are not really considering the idea of a PrC that could give more than 5 SA as balanced (given theme, restriction, or trade-offs) more than it is some deep differing view of balance.

Technik

OK, to give you an anecdotal example, to show that I have considered the effect (if not the cause), I'll tell you the story of Aeoun the Pixie, a PC from one 3.0 campaign I've DMed that I allowed to do what she did at the time (bad idea).

Aeuon the Pixie was a roguish sort, and took some levels in Rogue and then two in Arcane Trickster. Eventually she was confronted with an offer from a ninja thieve's guild, and became a Guild Thief, taking a level in the PrC and then another in Ninja of the Crescent Moon. Unwilling to assassinate targets, she quickly became the group's master of traps, taking a level in Trapmaster, then turned cold-hearted and finally gave in to the urge to become a killer, taking a level in Assassin. She was eventually disgusted, so she resigned to the position of Spymaster, taking a level in that. Eventually, she fled the guild, continuing to level in Ninja.

So what did she get with all those PrCs? Well, all of them gave Sneak Attack at level 1 (except Trickster, which gave it at level 2), so she gained Sneak Attack like your proposed Assassin. But all of them had little real special abilities at level 1, tough prerequisities that wasted every one of her feats and forced her hand on the skill points, and worst of all, no BAB progression at level 1. She was still extraordinarily powerful, just from the Sneak Attack alone.

This was a character in one of my campaigns, and she would have been much worse of a balance problem had she been a human instead of a pixie (the LA helped make her weaker).

 

[Technik4]

I find it difficult to conceive of taking so many PrCs. Nevertheless I appreciate the story. What do you think about limiting the ability to take an extra sneak attack die to 1 time (meaning you could get a max of 8 SA, at the cost of one of the cooler 3rd-tier Assasin abilities)? 3 more SA is 10 more damage on a sneak attack (by level 15), when a rogue just starts to get their 3rd iterative attack (at a low bonus). A 'specialized' assaisn would only have 2 more SA, or approx 7 more damage per hit.

Technik