D&D 4E In 4E Asmodeus will be a god!

[Mouseferatu]

I don't understand...

I'll take the question a step further. Mods, I realize that I'm tap-dancing on the very edge of the "no religion" rule. I'm trying to understand and clarify a point, nothing more. I don't think I'm crossing the line, but if you disagree, please let me know, and I'll delete the post. (Or do so yourself; I won't be offended.)

As I understand such things, most monotheistic religions consider pagan deities and demons to be, essentially, one and the same. When viewed through that lens, does it really make a difference if D&D's Asmodeus is "an arch-fiend" or "a god"? After all, D&D's deities are pantheistic, and thus pagan deities by any monotheistic definition. As such, changing Asmodeus from "devil" to "god" is purely one of semantics, yes?

Now, if they were claiming to make him God-with-a-capital-G, the single highest power ruling over all others, then I could certainly understand taking offense. But as it is, I'm just not understanding the problem.

 

[William Ronald]

This isn't a problem if his divinity is something alongside and in addition to his status as an archfiend, but if it's presented as being "better" than archfiend status, then it warps the nature of archfiends on the cosmic stage versus deities.

Gods can be evil, but archfiends -are- Evil. Gods are powerful, but they're relatively young inhabitants of the planes, and they lack the innate connection to the lower planes that the archfiends possess. There are tons of evil gods in Baator, but only nine Lords of the Nine. Gods are powerful, but they know their place on the lower planes, and they avoid getting involved in the fiends' inner politics and the Blood War because when they have, they've been punished, usually in a severe manner.

3e's false dichotomy between archfiends and gods was a serious step back for the cosmology, and it will pain me if 4e further perpetuates this by presenting a divine asmodeus as a god beyond touch, yet some of his Abyssal equivalents as just big monsters for high level players to beat up for XP. The archfiends, and other such planar lords, are physical manifestations of bedrock elements of the cosmos, something gods are not. Archfiends might be able to attain divinity in addition to their status as archfiends, but it doesn't supercede their nature as archfiends, it just gives another set of restrictions, obligations, and liabilities alongside power that isn't largely restricted to their native plane.

If we're going back to a 2e notion of divine Lords of the 9, and some abyssal lords likewise having embraced divinity, this is a good thing, but it's a disturbingly poor move in my opinion if it promotes this hideous notion of a two-tiered system between big monsters and gods, when the balance of power between them is much more complex and incredibly situational.

Shemeska, this is assuming that one is using the Planescape version of hte multiverse as a default. Personally, I always thought that the idea that the gods are newbies as something that contradicted the flavor of real world mythology that I tend to prefer.

I would prefer it if the Great Wheel was presented as an option, and a subset of the whole. Some may believe that the Great Wheel is actually all of existence, and that works well for Greyhawk for example. But other settings, and especially homebrews, have their own cosmology. I also seem to recall from the front of the site a great emphasis on real world mythology as a source. (No disrespect to Planescape or its fans is intended, but at times during 2nd Edition, it felt as if Planescape was presented as the only possible cosmology or history of the multiverse. It felt rather like someone trying to force peanut butter into my chocolate. )

Perhaps this is a return to 1st or 2nd edition, where some of the most powerful of fiends were viewed as counting as deities. So, perhaps some of the archdevils, demon lords, and pricnes might have some status as divinities. (If faith or adherence to a philosophy can be a source for spells, then theoretically that might be what is empowering the cults of those devils and demons that are not technically deities.)

 

[Shemeska]

Shemeska, this is assuming that one is using the Planescape version of hte multiverse as a default.

Though it varies slightly, depending on what author we're talking about, what I described was largely the case for 3e's Diet Planescape Great Wheel default cosmology, and seemed to be increasingly so near the end.

 

[Gentlegamer]

I thought Devil Princes and Demon Lords were already considered gods.

 

[I'm A Banana]

Now, if they were claiming to make him God-with-a-capital-G, the single highest power ruling over all others, then I could certainly understand taking offense. But as it is, I'm just not understanding the problem.

Even then, while more understandable, I wouldn't really comprehend it. I mean, it's a fantasy world of make-believe. Certainly, no matter how devout the Christian, it doesn't stop you from engaging in imagining fiction?

 

[Odhanan]

Just to bring a bit of perspective on the religious topic (sorry mods, I hope this thread will make you proud of us, though) as a Catholic gamer I'd like to precise that I'm perfectly fine with the name "Asmodeus", and perfectly fine to see him as a god in the fictional environment of D&D.

 

[Gargauth]

Asmodeus is not Biblical... a demon called Asmodai is mentioned in the Book of Tobit (which appears only the the Apochrypa but no real description is given).

A demon called Ashmedai appears in the Talmud with similar properties and this is believed to be a derivation of the above.

The only real mention of a demon called "Asmodeus" as it is spelled in his first appearance in Dragon #28 is in Milton's Paradise Lost, from which comes many ideas that some consider to be "Biblical".

So no, Asmodeus is never mentioned by name in any religious text.

 

[William Ronald]

Though it varies slightly, depending on what author we're talking about, what I described was largely the case for 3e's Diet Planescape Great Wheel default cosmology, and seemed to be increasingly so near the end.

Maybe the Great Wheel will be used -- it has a lot going for it. My problem was a predefined history of the multiverse that did not fit my ideas. So, perhaps the Great Wheel will be in, but there may be other cosmologies also known that are as real. (As in the case of Eberron's cosmology and that of the Great Wheel, the inhabitants of each cosmology for the most part may be unaware of each other's existence.)

As for Asmodeus ascending to the ranks of the deities, I imagine that in some ongoing worlds that started in 1st edition, he may have never left those ranks.

The religious argument does not phase me, although I do respect the concerns that some have expressed here. Somehow, I do not think that an archdevil in a game can be confused with a similarly named figure in the Book of Tobit. (As a Jew, I do not have a problem with the use of names from my religious tradition, as I can distinguish between how those names have been used and how they are used in a game. Heck, many of the archdevils have names drawn from ancient deities, such as Moloch, Baalzebul, and some can be found elsewhere, such as Lilith.) Nor do I think that we have to worry about most accusations of D&D as a Satanic game. That label has already been used, and the arguments have already been countered quite effectively. (These days, videogames seem to be the latest target.)

One thing that I have noticed is that there is some talk of alternate sources of power for characters. So, in addition to divine, arcane, and psionic, we may have celestial or infernal power sources. (So, possibly an archdevil may be able to help supply a person with additional power for a price. Hmm, maybe it is time for a few DMs to re-read Faust.)

 

[pawsplay]

some real-world comments removed - Plane Sailing
But in purely language terms, a god is a powerful supernatural entity who is believed to have influence over nature. That describes everything from a mythological dryad to the big G. That is only descriptive.

However, in D&D terms, going from archdevil to god may mean something more significant and specific, just as talking about a nymph versus one of the Twelve is significant among the Greek gods. Or it might just mean someone said, "Look, he's the ultimate evil, he has an unholy symbol, he has worshippers and cults, just call him a god and be done with it."

 

[pawsplay]

Asmodeus is not Biblical... a demon called Asmodai is mentioned in the Book of Tobit (which appears only the the Apochrypa but no real description is given).

A demon called Ashmedai appears in the Talmud with similar properties and this is believed to be a derivation of the above.

Yes, and Milton's Asmodeus is just a Latin-ifying of the Greek version of some Arabic transcription of that name. S versus Sh is not distinctive in some language sets (but is in others, hence "shibboleth"), replacing a final -e or -ae with -eos or -eas is a common Greekifying, -eus is the Latin equivalent.