D&D 5E In fact, INSERT RULES HERE was a key part of the 3rd edition, and it means 5th edition is still missing full support for this previous edition.

Sammael

Adventurer
But, JMHX, when I walked into a classic game, the first thing I'd ask is what variants the DM was using, and if he said 'none,' I wouldn't believe him. ;) 3e era, I'd ask what things he was allowing, and be a little surprised if he had anything too original, rather than just a list of books that were OK or banned.
Just for fun... here's my 3.5 House Rules document (which is probably atrocious by today's standards, and likely to frighten the feint of heart): https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B0uZ7Iw2Xj9VamdQT1pucWd3bHM

EDIT: [MENTION=4937]Celebrim[/MENTION] - do share, I'd like to see that monster of a House Rules doc (and use it to scare players).
 
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S

Sunseeker

Guest
Wizards amde D&D 5E: the Apology Edition, and it is 100% designed to be 3.5 lite. So is it really any surprise that it attracted people who liked 3.5, and that they subsequently complained that the edition actually wasn't 3.5 with it's exploding splat and absurd rule-spawning rate?

I've said it again and I'll say it before.

When I want creativity, I'll play 3X. When I want uniformity, I'll play 4E. When I want simplicity, I'll play 5E. Different games for different purposes, at least until 6E comes out which will of course be the One Edition to bring them all and in the D&D bind them.
 

Valetudo

Adventurer
Theres plenty of room for 5th to grow without becoming 3rd edition. Most of 3rds flaws are in its core rules, infact thats where most editions flaws are. You just notice them more when you stack even more on top. Even 5th will eventually have to deal with this. 5th is pretty solid though so hopefully the 5.5 or 6th edition will be pretty good.
 

Celebrim

Legend
EDIT: [MENTION=4937]Celebrim[/MENTION] - do share, I'd like to see that monster of a House Rules doc (and use it to scare players).

I'd have to think about the legality of sharing it. Plagiarism never was a concern in creating it, and although almost everything I borrowed has been transformed, there are going to be clear sources I'm working from in some cases. I'd hate to get a cease and desist on my own house rules. I've shared bits and pieces of it before on EnWorld, but only content that I was 100% sure I was sole author of. Also, I'm pretty sure I can't copy from or modify the SRD without following a bunch of OGL rules I've never paid attention. Also, I'd really not be pleased to find copies of my rules loose in the wild in the hands of strangers.

While I'm thinking about this, I'd say the rules are 50% a blend of the 3.0 and 3.5 SRDs (which his how the project got started) tweaked based on my own playtesting, 25% purely original content to fill gaps in the rules, and 25% content adopted from a variety of 3rd party sources that I thought superior (for my game) to the WotC content. For example, Green Ronin's Shaman replaces the core Druid for a variety of reasons. However, if you read the GR Shaman book it's very clear that they were trying to make sure that Shaman had it's own niche that didn't overlap with Druid, whereas my variant has killed the Druid and taken its stuff, and so no longer has that as a issue (largely changing the classes core spell list).

But can I share my rules with you, or would Green Ronin be (rightly) upset that you could then play something very like their Shaman (IMO, an improved version) without first buying their book (which, in my defense, I did)? There are a lot of complexities like that.
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
I'm not at all sure the on-line community is representative. "What we own" was probably a reasonably popular variation as well
True, and there was a related phenomenon in which players would feel 'entitled' to options in a supplement once they'd bought it.

LoL. I have a 596 page 3e house rules document that I consider woefully incomplete. I don't think DM empowerment or permission to mod the rules is ever anything I worry about.
Wow. I haven't gone that crazy with the variants since the 80s. More power to you!
 


ProphetSword

Explorer
You know, they could create a more detailed version of the game with additional rules crunch for the people that enjoy it and separate it from the main game. Perhaps they could call it...oh, I don't know...Advanced Dungeons & Dragons?
 

77IM

Explorer!!!
Supporter
I want to make a quick point. Many of the things that 77IM stated was not in 4E actually was, but it was covered in Unearthed Arcana articles, including how to craft object during downtime (achievements) as well as rules on building and buying strongholds. I am running a 4E game in FR and one of my players main focuses is to build their adventure company and expand their stronghold, not to mention crafting things up to wazoo.

I have complaints with both 3E and 4E, but it is not due to a lack of rules available to have your players feel engaged.

Sent from my XT1096 using Tapatalk

Thank you for the clarification -- I guess I never got far enough in 4E to hit those rules. (And I really liked 4E and played it pretty solidly for a year and a half.) To be fair, the stronghold rules in 3E were relegated to a supplemental book that didn't come out for a couple of years either.

This brings up a very interesting phenomenon: There is a difference between placing a rule in a core book, a supplement, a thirdparty supplement, a UA article, and a house rule document. When we say, "5E doesn't need more rules," I assume we are mostly talking about the core rules. I mean, nobody can stop rules from appearing in house rules documents, and thirdparty supplements are hard to prevent too; but people don't give those rules as much weight, either. Official rules supplements are a kind of gray area, though.

For example, some people would say, "Just give people* the magic-item-pricing rules they want in a supplement, and I'll just not use that at my table." But other people would say, "No no no, if it's in an official supplement, players will expect it to be available as an option, and it will worm its way into all our games."

Personally, I feel that when people ask for more rules to exist in an official form (and not in a thirdparty supplement or UA article), it is precisely because they WANT those rules to become de-facto "core" rules -- which is precisely the thing that leads to rules bloat.

It's not enough to label a subsystem optional; if your only options are to use a rule subsystem or ignore it, it becomes very hard to ignore it. The only way I could imagine Wizards introducing such supplemental rules without establishing them as new de-facto core rules is to release multiple versions. For example, if they simultaneously released three separate, equally official, incompatible rules systems for pricing magic items, people would have to select which one to use, and there wouldn't be any assumptions that one is better than the other.



* People = CapnZapp ;)
 

Sammael

Adventurer
It's not enough to label a subsystem optional; if your only options are to use a rule subsystem or ignore it, it becomes very hard to ignore it. The only way I could imagine Wizards introducing such supplemental rules without establishing them as new de-facto core rules is to release multiple versions. For example, if they simultaneously released three separate, equally official, incompatible rules systems for pricing magic items, people would have to select which one to use, and there wouldn't be any assumptions that one is better than the other.
I disagree - 3.5 Unearthed Arcana introduced a whole bunch of optional subsystems (many of them mutually exclusive) which I am certain were never considered to be core in any way and were likely ignored even by those DMs who purchased the book.

Likewise, Horror and Honor subsystems were repeated in multiple 3.5 books and were never viewed as core. Even Psionics, with 2 iterations, were largely ignored by many groups.

In other words, it's a matter of presentation.
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
This brings up a very interesting phenomenon: There is a difference between placing a rule in a core book, a supplement, a thirdparty supplement, a UA article, and a house rule document.
There really, really is, yes.
When we say, "5E doesn't need more rules," I assume we are mostly talking about the core rules.
Which does make it a moot statement. The core rules were set in stone (baring any reluctant stabs at errata) when the core books (PH, DMG, I suppose MM) hit the shelves. End of story.

It'll always be quite convenient to limit a campaign to using just those rules. Even in rules-obsessed/player-entitled 3e, you could get away with that.

Official rules supplements are a kind of gray area, though.

For example, some people would say, "Just give people* the magic-item-pricing rules they want in a supplement, and I'll just not use that at my table." But other people would say, "No no no, if it's in an official supplement, players will expect it to be available as an option, and it will worm its way into all our games."
Maybe I drank the koolaid, but I have to believe that, in the context of 5e, the former /is/ the case. That's the attitude 5e has fostered both in it's very DM-focused "Empowering" design and in the softer aspects of presentation and designer communications. The latter is, at best, an attitude held over from the 3e era, if you're coping with that attitude you might as well play PF, because you are, no matter what book is on the table, playing something about like 3e. (At worst, it's just plain wanting to dictate to other people how to play the game.)

It's not enough to label a subsystem optional; if your only options are to use a rule subsystem or ignore it, it becomes very hard to ignore it.
I find it blessedly easy to ignore Feats in 5e, just for one instance. But, yes, it's placement in the PH makes it about as easily-asserted an option as possible. There's a clear hierarchy of officialdom:

Basic Rules
PH
PH, but labeled 'optional'
DMG 'module'
Dead-tree supplements, prettymuch in order of release.
UA
3pp
DMsG

The only way I could imagine Wizards introducing such supplemental rules without establishing them as new de-facto core rules is to release multiple versions. For example, if they simultaneously released three separate, equally official, incompatible rules systems for pricing magic items, people would have to select which one to use, and there wouldn't be any assumptions that one is better than the other.
I don't think that's necessary or the 'only way,' but I sure wouldn't mind the added choice & flexibility. ;)
 

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