In game explanations of out of game mechanics

[wally]

I guess I need to start this with the regular "I don't mean this to turn into a why you love or why you hate 4e thread."

What I want to know is directed toward those who are converting to or planning to run 4e, but think that the game is more than just a 'kill things and take their loot' sort of game.

How are you going to explain things in game like milestones and item use only per milestone or per day and such?

I know that some people refer to the Healing Surge as a second wind, but I haven't really met anyone that can activate a second wind upon command.

Some people are saying that magic is now attuned to the individual, and that you can only draw upon your own power so much, but are you guys adding rules or just flavour that indicates that the character is now tired due to drawing upon that energy, but entering another combat gave them back that ability? How many things do you attribute to a second wind?

I think my problem is that there is only so many ways you can try to explain these things before you start to think that there should be other effects to the characters.

Also, is there a reason that those who created magic items are now making them lesser and not able to run on their own power?

I am trying to be very open minded about 4e, but I would rather have my imagination working on the adventures, not explanations of the mechanics.

-wally

 

[Pielorinho]

How are you going to explain things in game like milestones and item use only per milestone or per day and such?

I don't see these as much of a problem: the abilities are exhausting to use, but a short rest gets you back up in the saddle. The "per day" abilities are a little tougher to explain. The stopgap explanation I'll probably go with is that they're really just cool things you can do when the moment is exactly right, and these exactly-right moments occur pretty rarely (say, once a day....); the player is actually choosing when an opportune moment comes along.

I know that some people refer to the Healing Surge as a second wind, but I haven't really met anyone that can activate a second wind upon command.

Consider that it's a standard action: you're essentially pulling yourself out of combat for a minute, refocusing, taking a deep breath, and then plunging back in. It's more of a mental thing than a physical thing.

Hit points are now even more abstract than before, IMO, and don't start representing serious physical injury until you get to the ones that take you beneath 0 HP. A 150-hp character at 6 HP is just bruised and battered. Enough so that she'll be unable to dodge the next hit and will take it full-on, sure--but not so much that taking a 5-minute rest won't be enough to get her back up in the saddle, so to speak.

Daniel

 

[LostSoul]

IHow are you going to explain things in game like milestones and item use only per milestone or per day and such?

I will describe it in whatever way will be most fun at the moment.

 

[AllisterH]

Second Winds and Healing Surges? That one was easy. John McClane/Professor Indidana Jones.

Basically, "you know in a movie/book where it looks like the protoganist is out of juice but suddenly seems to get inspired once again and starts attacking as if fresh? That's a second wind. You know when in an action movie the hero simply is beat-up after a battle but a few minutes later is pretty much good to go? That's healing surges"

None of the players had a problem with that.

 

[wally]

Second Winds and Healing Surges? That one was easy. John McClane/Professor Indidana Jones.

Basically, "you know in a movie/book where it looks like the protoganist is out of juice but suddenly seems to get inspired once again and starts attacking as if fresh? That's a second wind. You know when in an action movie the hero simply is beat-up after a battle but a few minutes later is pretty much good to go? That's healing surges"

None of the players had a problem with that.

Yeah, but do you use the 'second wind' excuse for everything? How many second winds does an individual reach in a given day? Fourth/Fifth winds?

I think to me it would just get a little too repetitive, especially if you are using the same excuse for different things.

Also, just a side note...

When I saw the characters in those movies, they didn't necessarily seem fine by the end of the movies in any way. McClane could barely walk by the end of the first and second. If a couple of healing surges later, your character has all or most of his hit points back, it isn't really the same thing. Also, as those characters are quite hindered after such a beating, are you applying any sort of hinderance to the characters in your game? Do they move at say half, or they are unable to carry as much, or do as much after taking such a beating?

Just adding to the comparison of movies to gaming.

-wally

 

[RandomCitizenX]

I don't think you understand the differences between a Healing Surge and a Second Wind. Second Wind is a specific use of Healing Surge which can be used once per encounter. Healing Surge is a mechanic built into the game which gives you the hard limit of healing and damage your body can take without taking a long rest.

So far, for my group, second winds have only been used when things have been truly dire (such as when the Rogue found himself surrounded by three dragonshields and had a wyrmpriest chunking energy orbs at him). This is when it fits the action hero, John McClaine, style. The kobolds thought the rouge was out when he manages to pull himself together and get back in the fight.

Milestones are just a way to manage the tempo of the game, they can be adjusted to make it so that you regain action points and such however is appropriate to the genre you are trying to emulate.

 

[AllisterH]

Yeah, but do you use the 'second wind' excuse for everything? How many second winds does an individual reach in a given day? Fourth/Fifth winds?

As many times as I the DM send out combat really. Not sure why you consider it an excuse? It's a game mechanic to allow players to function somewhat without a healer. Most of my players don't actually expect to have everything rationalized but for thse that did, the action movie equivalent worked.

I think to me it would just get a little too repetitive, especially if you are using the same excuse for different things.

Also, just a side note...

When I saw the characters in those movies, they didn't necessarily seem fine by the end of the movies in any way. McClane could barely walk by the end of the first and second.

But during the movie itself? Similarly, take the first Indy movie where Indy gets beaten up, has a good night sleep and the very next day, he's as fresh as a daisy and kicking butt.

If a couple of healing surges later, your character has all or most of his hit points back, it isn't really the same thing. Also, as those characters are quite hindered after such a beating, are you applying any sort of hinderance to the characters in your game? Do they move at say half, or they are unable to carry as much, or do as much after taking such a beating?

Just adding to the comparison of movies to gaming.

-wally

Why would I? No seriously, why would I penalize the characters? I'm not trying to encorage say the Death Spiral mechanic but I'm trying to emulate Conan et al.


Keep in mind that I'm a firm believe of not looking too closely at HP

 

[Ander00]

When I saw the characters in those movies, they didn't necessarily seem fine by the end of the movies in any way. McClane could barely walk by the end of the first and second.

Exactly, he was probably out of healing surges by then. It's not like you can just keep using second wind, or most other forms of healing for that matter, over and over again without end. Unlike in third edition, where you'd just keep pinging someone with a wand of CLW until they were all good.


cheers

 

[wally]

I don't think you understand the differences between a Healing Surge and a Second Wind. Second Wind is a specific use of Healing Surge which can be used once per encounter. Healing Surge is a mechanic built into the game which gives you the hard limit of healing and damage your body can take without taking a long rest.

So far, for my group, second winds have only been used when things have been truly dire (such as when the Rogue found himself surrounded by three dragonshields and had a wyrmpriest chunking energy orbs at him). This is when it fits the action hero, John McClaine, style. The kobolds thought the rouge was out when he manages to pull himself together and get back in the fight.

Milestones are just a way to manage the tempo of the game, they can be adjusted to make it so that you regain action points and such however is appropriate to the genre you are trying to emulate.

My third attempt to reply...Apparently I am having problems getting to EnWorld today.

It isn't that I am not understanding the mechanics, I am trying to understand how it is explained in game.

Does a character actually say, 'I know that I used my funky magic item in the last fight, and I am a little bit tired because of it, but if someone comes along and fights me again, I can use it a second time. Otherwise, I just am unable to use that magic item until tomorrow.'

I was refering to in game...It is easy to call a healing surge a second wind (not refering to the game mechanic), as people get those and feel them as well, but I don't think people get a fifth wind and can continue as if refreshed completely.

I know you as a DM can explain it, and your players will understand the mechanics as is written, but how do the characters see it.

This is why I was asking those who like immersive gaming, not just the 'the rule says it is so, there you go' type of gamer.

-wally

 

[wally]

Exactly, he was probably out of healing surges by then. It's not like you can just keep using second wind, or most other forms of healing for that matter, over and over again without end. Unlike in third edition, where you'd just keep pinging someone with a wand of CLW until they were all good.


cheers

Maybe I don't get the reference. Are you saying that in 4e, the healing surges are magical in nature, but they aren't unlimited because that would be unbalancing?

I was to understand that they were explained away as a 'second wind' (again not the mechanic just the idea), and that they were making hit points less about damage until you went below 0 and such. If so, then how would someone do this in 3e without any magic? In 4e, if you have the magical capability, can you not heal someone up, or did they take that away?

-wally