In light of recent events by Avalanche Press (Company bashing not desired)

Will you continue to be an Avalanche Press customer?

  • Yes! I really don't see what is so bad about this.

    Votes: 2 1.1%
  • No! I'm sorry, but I just can't support them because of this.

    Votes: 114 61.3%
  • I honestly don't care. I might buy their stuff, I might not. But these events won't affect my decisi

    Votes: 70 37.6%

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Greetings!

Hmmm...I must say that I am disappointed in Avalanche's distinctly immature attitude. I am a History Major, and historical analysis and inspiration and good attention to historical detail has a very interesting and needed place within industry modules and supplements. Avalanche has claimed to deliver on this, and wrapped it in provocative covers.

Frankly, the covers didn't bother me at all. What I have found continually frustrating with Avalanche products is that there is a certain *potential* there, but they never seem to really deliver. They have usually put out small 32/64 page supplements, that have all seemed to fail to deliver the rich historical detail that they claim to seek to deliver. I have read the reviews here, but more importantly, I have personally looked over their products at the game store, and the only one that I bought was Constantinople. The rest I have looked at, and they all *appeared* good, but the more I searched through them, the more I read the sections, looked at the artwork, layout, and checked the whole format, they just haven't really delivered. I haven't bought another Avalanche product since.

That assessment of mine to be honest is purely from an honest, objective position, searching for something cool and useful to me. They have largely been disappointing.

This latest episode merely confirms the suspicion that I have had with them, is that D20 isn't really something they devote serious effort and attention to, because their products don't demonstrate it, and even after their initial products, I think they have six or seven out now--they haven't shown a whole lot of progress and quality improvement. Their attitutde serves to amplify this sort of half-hearted, anemic approach to module design that they have demonstrated to me throughout.

Their attitude is immature, and simply absurd. It reinforces my hesitancy to buy anything that they produce in the future, as well. Indeed, if they produced something of very high quality, I might consider purchasing it, but after what they have already produced I don't see it happening. For those customers who really liked their products, or for those customers here at EN-World who have seriously considered the reviews for their purchases of Avalanche products, well, it seems that Avalanche has shot itself in the foot. Just sad, really.:)

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
 

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Wulf Ratbane said:
However, if you refuse to send product to "bad reviewers" then you throw into question the validity of any good review of your product.

Ah, so if you think a particular reviewer has a special thing against you, and that he doesn't give you a fair shake, you should continue to send free products to him, encouraging him to give you more bad press? That's illogical.

Has it occurred to anyone that, form Avalanche's point of view, it may seem that EN World reviewers are unfair? I mean, look at all the flack we give them for their covers. Might we here not look... less than neutral to them? Hm?
 
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Umbran said:


Ah, so if you think a particular reviewer has a special thing against you, and that he doesn't give you a fair shake, you should continue to send free products to him, encouraging him to give you more bad press? That's illogical.

Has it occurred to anyone that, form Avalanche's point of view, it may seem that EN World reviewers are unfair? I mean, look at all the flack we give them for their covers. Might we here not look... less than neutral to them? Hm?

As a big reader of the reviews I can say that the reviews of Avelanche's products seem very fair. But this is a good point, and people might want to go read through the reviews to judge for themselves.
 

Umbran said:
Ah, so if you think a particular reviewer has a special thing against you, and that he doesn't give you a fair shake, you should continue to send free products to him, encouraging him to give you more bad press? That's illogical.

There are all sorts of "bad" reviews. There are reviews that are biased against you. There are reviews that are not thorough enough (though not showing any particular bias). And there are reviews that are thorough AND critical.

The thorough and critical ones are absolutely necessary to improve your product.

I've said before I think I got some reviews where I didn't get a fair shake (no biased reviews, just some that were not particularly thorough). In some cases the reviewer picked on issues with the book that clearly demonstrated they had not read the product.

But no, it doesn't affect my review policy at all, and it's not at all illogical. Bad reviews are part of the process. I trust the reader to be able to sort the thorough, objective reviews from the useless or negatively biased ones.

What I personally took away from my first round of "bad" reviews on DWARVES was that there is a particular segment of the public-- in particular, I suspect they are DM's, not players-- who don't care for the format of the books. Too much crunch, too many options, and just not enough fluff. The books didn't fire for them because they didn't deliver what they, as DMs, were expecting the product to be.

But players seem to love them. So in working on the second book, I tried to reconcile the two groups a bit more and reach a wider audience.

As for Avalanche, I don't think they have the good sense to tell the different kinds of "bad" reviews apart. We're really not talking about "biased" reviewers here, they simply can't take negative criticism.

Frankly, what's more damning is their contention that reviews can be bought. That's really a whole 'nother issue from whether or not they choose to provide review copies to ENworld or anywhere else.


Wulf
 

Avalanche is an utter cheese for doing this. It's like "Hey, Ebert & Roeper gave a crappy review for my movie, so I'll SUE them if they dare publish ANOTHER review for another movie from my company!" And to write such a letter for products that are mostly an unbiased average (some good, some bad) is more than ridiculous.

BTW, I agree with Lordnightshade and Lord Mhoram, and most definitely MeepoTheMighty. Never really liked the company anyway, at least their D20 products. They think that scantily-clad chicks can get us geeks over. Even if their content is good (saw one of 'em, IIRC, and wasn't interested), the T&A makes me think of it much, much less, with my mentality saying, "They know it's bad, so they have to put some near-naked chick to sell the book!" And no, there were NO scantily-clad chicks in any historical world. They are a modern invention. :D Historical fantasy? Get a history book! Go to your local library and take a couple of notes. Perhaps, I MIGHT give Avalanche a chance if I was in a hurry, or needed cross-references, but now? No way.

(Don't get me wrong, I obviously like scantily-clad, or less, chicks, but save that for the Sports Illustrated Swimsuit Issue or Playboy. Not role-playing, unless you are doing a D20 Conan or the like.)

Besides, I seldom buy anything d20 from third parties, unless they have something so unique and creative within them, or some niche I love, or so much quantity for the price (i.e. Book of Eldritch Might).
 

Umbran said:
Has it occurred to anyone that, form Avalanche's point of view, it may seem that EN World reviewers are unfair? I mean, look at all the flack we give them for their covers. Might we here not look... less than neutral to them? Hm?

I don't think opinions about the covers will terribly effect a review. A good (as in sufficient not as in pro) review should go into detail about what is in the product and the reviewers likes and dislikes. If they give a product a certain rating the text of their review should say why they are giving it. Any review that would say the content was ok, but the cover was blatently just selling sex so I am giving it a 1 rating would quickly be given a 24 hour warning by Psion or whatever mod saw it. Reviews need to have more to them than that.

That being said, personally I will not buy a product by ANY publisher that shows scantily clad women in a sexual pose on the cover.
 
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Fred Delles said:
Avalanche is an utter cheese for doing this. It's like "Hey, Ebert & Roeper gave a crappy review for my movie, so I'll SUE them if they dare publish ANOTHER review for another movie from my company!" And to write such a letter for products that are mostly an unbiased average (some good, some bad) is more than ridiculous.

Actually, I think "Hey, Ebert & Roeper gave a crappy review for my movie, so I'll stop sending them free tickets!" would be a closer approximation.
 

bondetamp said:


Actually, I think "Hey, Ebert & Roeper gave a crappy review for my movie, so I'll stop sending them free tickets!" would be a closer approximation.


Yes, but Ebert & Roeper give crappy reviews all the time, yet movie studios still give them free tickets. It all goes back to that whole "any publicity is good publicity" thing.
 

I cannot believe the level of hypocracy, or naïveté, exressed in this thread.

Take down any single sci-fi or fantasy novel on your shelf. EVERY SINGLE ONE YOU TAKE DOWN WAS SENT FOR FREE TO A REVIEWER WHO WAS KNOWN TO GIVE GOOD REVIEWS TO THAT AUTHORS PRODUCTS. When a reviewer gave a bad review to one of those authors products, they were taken off the "free copy" list.

Maybe you didn't know that before (though it is not a hidden fact). But you do now.

Will you be now not buying any more sci-fi or fantasy novels? Or is it somehow okay in that industry, but not in the RPG industry?

In fact, with very rare exception (like Consumer Reports), that is the standard in MOST industries. I'm sorry you guys find that shocking, or unethical. But that is how free products sent out for reviews usually works, and I think you guys are hypocritical if you stop buying avalanche press books simply because of their new free-copy policy, but you don't take the same action when it comes to sci-fi books, fantasy books, most computer and electronics products, and most movies and TV shows even.
 

MeepoTheMighty said:
Yes, but Ebert & Roeper give crappy reviews all the time, yet movie studios still give them free tickets. It all goes back to that whole "any publicity is good publicity" thing.

Well, not always. Some movies cancel ALL their press junkets just before release. That's when you know you have a REAL stinker on the way: a movie so bad, that not even bad publicity can save it.
 

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