In praise of 1 minute/level spells

[Xeriar]

OUCH!!!

Anyone who doesn't agree with that is insane?!?!?

That's quite a statement.

I'll try to take it as the compliment I'm sure it was intended to be.

DC

Compare with See Invisibility, Knock, Daylight, and so on. 2nd level consists of many very powerful utilitarian spells - not just the boosters.

At least for a wizard, spell slots are too precious to waste on crap that an item can easily duplicate.

 

[Shard O'Glase]

One of the designers mentioned that in testing, they saw use of those spells dropping off to nothing, and then slowly coming back as preparation for the really tough fights. That suggests to me that there really is a use for them, and that a large portion of the online community is still in the 'denial' phase of grieving over their lost buffs. (I'll trust people who have actually tested something over Internet pundits working off of incomplete information any day.)

J

Bah this quote sounds too much like yeah when the players bumped into the double doors with all the cool symbols on it and the big sign outside that said "THe Boss Fight behind these doors" they cast them. Whoppedy-do yeah even a crap buff I'll unload in prep for a big fight, because I can only cast one spell a round and the loss of the buffs wont be felt by the end of the fight.

Heck as long as I have 4+rounds of spells left over before I enter the room I'm pretty good, because I usually don't exepct the fight to last long enough for me to get more spells than that out. 4 would be cutting it close, but heck I don't care how crappy the buff is I'll unload them in prep for a fight i'm aware of.

At the 1/min level duration the spells should not only be wanted to be cast in prep stage but also in round one of a fight. And these spells don't come close to the power necesarry for me to be willing to spend a round in a fight on casting them.

 

[Technik4]

[+4 Str]

+2 to hit. Under 3.5 you can take +2 to hit and turn it into +4 damage.

+2 damage.

+2 to Climb, Jump, Swim, Breaking Down Doors, Bending Bars, etc.

Possible +2 intimidate if using optional rules.


[+4 Dex]

+2 to hit on ranged attacks or attacks with weapon finesse.

+2 AC

+2 Initiative

+2 Reflex Saves

+2 Hide, Move Silently, Open Locks, Sleight of Hand, Tumble, Use Rope.


[+4 Con]

+2 hp/level (to a maximum of +40 hp at level 20). In the middle of a fight a wizard can cast this spell to "heal" 40 points of damage, not too shabby.

+2 Concentration Checks

+2 Fortitude Saves


[+4 Int]

+2 Wizard Spell DCs

+2 Decipher Script, Knowledge Checks, Disable Device.


[+4 Wis]

+2 Cleric, Druid, Ranger, Paladin Spell DCs

+2 Spot, Listen, Sense Motive, Profession checks

+2 Will Saves


[+4 Cha]

+2 Sorceror, Bard Spell DCs

+2 Gather Info, Bluff, Diplomacy, Intimidate, Use Magic Device.

+2 Change Encounter Feelings (cant remember "official name")


I think the dex one is easily on par with other 2nd level spells, and is far and away the best. The strength and constitution ones are decent. I think the mental ones are all weaker, with Int being the weakest general spell, but by far the best spell for a single class - wizard.

They all also provide a +2 on their respective checks, which tend to come up in adventures. Casting Fox's Cunning while trying to solve a riddle (for a +2 on the Intelligence check) isnt a bad idea. Especially if afterwords you can use the +2 DCs in a fight!

I think as the designers themselves said, the spells will see a period of disregard, and then slowly people will start picking them again.

Technik

PS- I know I probably forgot some bonuses, I just thought of the above off the top of my head.

 

[Kershek]

I was talking with our gaming group about this change recently, and several points were raised about this change. I don't necessarily agree with all these points, but they are worth debating.

1) Leave them 1 hour/level and cap them (max 10 hours perhaps), similar to cure spells.

2) Make them 10 minutes per level. The reasoning by Andy Collins for not making them this duration is silly (i.e. too much for the DM to track at such a duration).

3) Making them 1 min/level punishes low level use, which is what needs the boosts the most.

4) Making them 1 min/level means they will be relegated to item creation use. You won't even bother writing them in your book; you'll just buy scrolls and make items with them (or the cleric will just make items with them).

5) Making them 1 min/level means you cannot use them for most of your combats. More often than not, you don't have time to prepare for a combat that is coming within a few rounds. There is little reason to waste a combat round giving a fighter +2 to hit when you could have used that round casting a different spell that is much more useful in combat.

6) What is the problem with a high level spellcaster giving a +2 to hit to the fighter all day, or +2 to dex for the rogue, considering the other kinds of impressive things he can do with his spells? The metamagic stacking has already been fixed, and that was considered the "broken" piece, so why mess with these spells?

Comments?

 

[Dimwhit]

Actually, I agree with all the points (though 1 and 2 do conflict a bit - either would be fine with me). I'm curious as to which ones you don't agree with.

 

[Kershek]

I don't really like the idea of being buffed 24 hours a day, personally. It does cut into the use of items. I think 10 mins/level was a good comprimise (but do you keep them at 1d4+1 or change it to +4?). I hadn't thought of the cap until my group mentioned it. I do agree with #3. The rest I grew to understand, though I disagree with #6.

 

[Dimwhit]

I can't comment too much on the 24 hours of boost. We've never had that, even with our high-level characters. No one ever extended a buff spell. I like the idea of a cap. 10min/level isn't bad either.

#6 is purely subjective. In a campaign that isn't heavily min/max'd (like the one I'm in), it's not that big a deal. But I could see it getting out of hand.

 

[Henry]

At least for a wizard, spell slots are too precious to waste on crap that an item can easily duplicate.

Items can easily duplicate EVERYTHING in a wizard's spell arsenal. It's how the items are made in the first place.

 

[Kershek]

"easily" is the key word here. If the spell isn't very useful outside of making an item for its benefit, it's a poorly written spell.

 

[Tzarevitch]

I was talking with our gaming group about this change recently, and several points were raised about this change. I don't necessarily agree with all these points, but they are worth debating.

1) Leave them 1 hour/level and cap them (max 10 hours perhaps), similar to cure spells.

2) Make them 10 minutes per level. The reasoning by Andy Collins for not making them this duration is silly (i.e. too much for the DM to track at such a duration).

3) Making them 1 min/level punishes low level use, which is what needs the boosts the most.

4) Making them 1 min/level means they will be relegated to item creation use. You won't even bother writing them in your book; you'll just buy scrolls and make items with them (or the cleric will just make items with them).

5) Making them 1 min/level means you cannot use them for most of your combats. More often than not, you don't have time to prepare for a combat that is coming within a few rounds. There is little reason to waste a combat round giving a fighter +2 to hit when you could have used that round casting a different spell that is much more useful in combat.

6) What is the problem with a high level spellcaster giving a +2 to hit to the fighter all day, or +2 to dex for the rogue, considering the other kinds of impressive things he can do with his spells? The metamagic stacking has already been fixed, and that was considered the "broken" piece, so why mess with these spells?

Comments?

1) Personally, I agree that the duration on these things was too long. I would've opted for 10/min/lvl myself though I don't have a real problem with 1 min/lvl.

2) See #1 but I disagree with the idea that 10 min/lvl is too difficult to track.

3) Actually it encourages low level use because it is a rare low-level spell that lasts long enough for low-level PCs to get full benefit. Also, low level PCs don't have much stamina anyway. 1 hour/lvl at low levels is pretty meaningless because PCs need to stop and rest after a fight or 2 anyway. The added duration is just wasted. At high levels on the other hand, the spells last all day and are almost as powerful as permanent items. The only downsides are the fact that you have to waste a spell casting for each one (not that much of a waste actually considering the fact that the other 2nd lvl spells are pretty weak) and the fact that you are very vulnerable to Dispel Magic.

4) Actually they are still very useful. They are less so for spontaneous casters though because the spells now become much less useful at higher levels. A spontaneous caster is usually better off getting an item than wasting a spell known on them in 3.5 though. A cleric or druid who doesn't have to spend time or money to put the spells in a book or have to waste a precious known-spell slot however looses nothing by continuing to use the spells as they are still better than most of the 2nd level spells on the cleric, druid or sorcerer/wizard lists. You just need to find the right time to cast them.

5) I think that was the exact point of the change: to make sure that you cannot use them for multiple fights in the same day. I disagree with the idea that there is "little use" in spending the time to cast the spell. At low levels these spells are still very powerful. They aren't the god spells that they once were but they are still mighty for 2rd level spells. If you are only 3rd level, giving your melee types +2 to hit and damge is more powerful than most of the things that you can do at that level and the effect lasts longer too.

Once casters get to be high level, you are correct there is little reason to cast them; but then again they are 2nd level spells. They SHOULD be less useful at higher levels: that is what higher level spells are for. Honestly, I see no reason why someone couldn't research improved versions of the buff spells at say 4th level that last 1 hour/lvl, but at 2nd level, that is way too much.

6) See above. The problem isn't with the giving of the bonus, the problem is with the fact that that you have 2nd level spells that last all day. The disaster that was caused when they allowed metamagic stacking was just part of the problem. They were simply too powerful for their level. Compare the buff spells to the other 2nd level spells and see if you think they are on the same level.

Tzarevitch