• NOW LIVE! Into the Woods--new character species, eerie monsters, and haunting villains to populate the woodlands of your D&D games.

In praise of 1 minute/level spells

sithramir said:


To make these spells last 24/7 would make you 24th level. Epic. Using extend to make them last long to get 24/7 would take a 4th level spell (can no longer compare this to 2nd level spell slots) and would require 13th or so level. Using persistant spell would make it 6th level and 11th level caster but now takes a 6th level slot (hmm better compare to those to 6th level spells). The idea is when your not that high of level the spells may last all day but what if you are attacked at night? WHOH a creative DM and hence you'd need 2 slots to keep it up 24/7 if not more.

Effective 24/7 is whenever the action is happening. Generally speaking almost all the action happens as the party prepares for it. Sometimes baddies will strike them unprepared or throw a greater dispel but not too often.

Basically the spells were active more often than not and that affected class choice decision.

This is why two of my players cried a river when they were told of the 3.5 versions and why I support it.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

Tzarevitch said:
3.0 Hold Person may be better, but not the 3.5version. A consistant +2 Hit and damage for 3 minutes is better than a save to avoid spell that allows a re-save the next round . . . and the next . . . and so on. Basically, you've used your action for the round to cancel your target's action for the round.


Wrong. For potentially several rounds. Given the extreme vulnerability of most targets of hold person to Will saves (obvious fighter types, for example), the liklihood is that they will fail their save on a consistent basis. Note that the target of hold person is apparently not scot free if he saves once, he has to resave the next round or be held for that round.

I also dispute that summoning a celestial wolf is better than giving a dedicated melee type a +2 to hit and damage at 3rd level. For a 3rd level fighter that is a huge increase in his hit chance and some extra damage now and for the rest of the fight as opposed to the summoned wolf that has 1 weak attack, only lasts 3 rounds and arrives the round AFTER you need it.

Summoning the wolf into flanking position gives the meless guy +2 to hit. It also makes the wolf's attack significantly better. Coupled with the wolf's natural trip ability, there is a good chance that you will give your melee type +6 to hit on one or more occassion when the wolf is in play. So, the end result is that the wolf is likely to do as much damage as the increased damage from bull's strength and is going to be better at increasing the attack rolls of the melee type.

If I cast Bull's Strength on my 3rd level fighter ally with a 14 Str, Weapon Focus and and a Greatsword+1 for example , his Str climbs to 18 and he inflicts 2d6+6 (13 average) damage EACH round at +9 to hit. Aganst 3rd level adversaries that is very likely to hit.

If I summon a celestial wolf into flanking position with such a combatant, then the 3rd level fighter will have a +9 bonus to hit and deal 2d6+4 damage (11 average) while the wolf will attack at +5 to hit (also likely to hit 3rd level adversaries) and inflict 1d6+1 damage (4.5 average) with the possibility of a trip attack succeeding in that sequence (raising the fighter's attack bonus to +13 while the opponent is prone).

Hmm, more damage, better side benefits. Summon monster II sure seems like a no brained over bull's strength.

Using your Burning Hands example (which is admittedly lower level, but it is scaleable as you said), at 3rd level the burning hands will do 3d6 damage (10.5 average) If he fails his save. If he saves you are looking at half that, and to top it off you are standing way too close to your target. Note there is no save against the fighter's enhanced damage and he can do it again for the rest of the fight at no extra cost to me while I do something else useful.

And the fighter's increased damage is spread out over many rounds, which makes it less useful. In addition, you left out the fact that burning hands can (and usually does) encompass more than one opponent in its area of effect. if the party is facing, say a group of six gnolls (An EL 3 encounter), an average damage roll probably kill three of them immediately, a situation far prefereable to having the fighter slowly work his way through them.

As I said before, at low levels, 3.5 Bull's Strength and the other enhancement spells are still generally better than similar level spells. Yes there are some spells that are better, but there are also many that are less useful or only occasionally useful.

No, they are generally far crappier that spells of similar level. Heck, the animal buffs as they stand in 3.5 are less useful than many 1st level spells.
 

FreeTheSlaves said:
Effective 24/7 is whenever the action is happening. Generally speaking almost all the action happens as the party prepares for it. Sometimes baddies will strike them unprepared or throw a greater dispel but not too often.


Then your DM is not doing his job very well. Having the opponents sit around waiting for the PCs to come and find them is just lazy. Intelligent (and even some unintelligent) opponents should seek to locate and engage the PCs when the PCs are unprepared. Packs of wolves frequently attack at night in the real world. Why do you think that is?

Basically the spells were active more often than not and that affected class choice decision.

Only because the DM let the action all occur when the spells were active more often than not. If the PCs are the only proactive individuals in a game world, then things like this could seem unbalanced, when in fact, they are not.
 

Storm Raven said:
Then your DM is not doing his job very well. Having the opponents sit around waiting for the PCs to come and find them is just lazy. Intelligent (and even some unintelligent) opponents should seek to locate and engage the PCs when the PCs are unprepared. Packs of wolves frequently attack at night in the real world. Why do you think that is?

Only because the DM let the action all occur when the spells were active more often than not. If the PCs are the only proactive individuals in a game world, then things like this could seem unbalanced, when in fact, they are not.

I am the dm and I have a folder full of area and npc notes but my npcs don't know of or care about the pcs. Sure, encounters occur at night and the party gets surprised but this is not the norm unless they have wandered into tough lands (and are leveled enough to extended buffs).

Nup, in my experience the party is by definition the most proactive group about by virtue of being played by clever people.
 

FreeTheSlaves said:
I am the dm and I have a folder full of area and npc notes but my npcs don't know of or care about the pcs. Sure, encounters occur at night and the party gets surprised but this is not the norm unless they have wandered into tough lands (and are leveled enough to extended buffs).


So, your NPCs aren't aware of, or concerned by a band of random people who run around wrecking their plans, sticking their nose into all kinds of things, bumping off groups and people who displease them, and carrying around obscene amounts of wealth (the last of which, by itself, should draw lots of unwelcome attention).

That's odd to say the least.

Nup, in my experience the party is by definition the most proactive group about by virtue of being played by clever people.

And the NPCs are just dumb idiots who sit around in their caves and abandoned monestaries waiting slack-jawed for a band of adventurers to barge in to their homes and kill them one by one? Many NPCs should be at least as proactive at the PCs, they aren't any dumber than the PCs for the most part, why are you playing them like they are?

In effect, I'm saying that, based upon your descriptions, you are not doing that part of a DMs job very well. No wonder you have problems with extended buffs if you just let the PCs control the action.
 


Nup, in my experience the party is by definition the most proactive group about by virtue of being played by clever people.
sooooooo... your the DM, adn your saying that the NPCs are NOT played by "clever people":rolleyes:
 

I have one mind. They have 4.

And yes, I consider my friends to be more intelligent than myself but not as good looking.:D

(Btw it is you're not your when you abreviate you are)
 
Last edited:

Into the Woods

Remove ads

Top