Olrox17
Hero
But that’s still a sorcerer, an arcane magic user. It’s just a sorcerer with a Psionic ancestry (or something) capable of occasionally ignoring components, like a true Psion, through the use of sorcery points.
D&D 5E In your Years of Gaming, How many Psionic Characters did you See played
Maxperson
Morkus from Orkus
Yep. I totally notice that a magic user can turn a MAGIC SPELL into psionics and depending on success, remove components. This is not only not a Psion, but is proof that they view psionics as not requiring components. The psionic portion is removing the need for components from the MAGIC SPELL.
So what? It's psionics. You don't get to use 'true psion' as some kind of hall pass to ignore examples you don't like. It's not an argument for the idea that material components will be a part of psionics either, just one case where the test rules do that. Counter to the claim that psionics and material components are completely separate in 100% of the cases in 5e thus far.
There's also this, from the same UA:
The philosophy of this approach is most akin to the one taken in the 1st edition of D&D, where psionic powers weren’t the domain of any particular class but were available for characters of different types to experience.
Note the use of the term psionic powers. This precedes the Sorcerer write up, and is a pretty solid indication that WotC at least sees the subclass as one that uses Psionic Powers (with material components no less!), even if you might not agree.
Maxperson
Morkus from Orkus
On the contrary, I love that example since it supports me 100%. Removing the need for components from a MAGIC SPELL via psionics just shows that WotC still views psionics as they have for the last 20 years. Something that does not need components.
That's an indication that they may not make a psion, not an indication that psionics doesn't remove the need for components. The Sorcerer psionic subclass clearly shows that psionics removes the need for components.
Also note that not one psionic ability in any of the subclasses requires a single component to use. That sorcerer didn't have to use a stick of gum or something in order to use the psionic power to remove components from the spell.
I voted almost never. I have only ever had one psionics using character and that was in Living Arcanis back in the 3.0 days. I forget the exact name of the class but he was a fighter who used psychic abilities.
I remember we messed around with psionics back when I first started playing in the 1st edition days. The chance to have psionics was so low that I always assumed none of my characters could ever plausibly have them but you had to be familiar with the psionics rules if you had mind flairs and similar creatures in your campaign because they made use of the psionic attacks and defenses.
I remember we messed around with psionics back when I first started playing in the 1st edition days. The chance to have psionics was so low that I always assumed none of my characters could ever plausibly have them but you had to be familiar with the psionics rules if you had mind flairs and similar creatures in your campaign because they made use of the psionic attacks and defenses.
Olrox17
Hero
No, It's not psionics unless a psionic talent die is used.
Let me quote the Sorcerer's Spellcasting class feature:
"An event in your past, or in the life of a parent or ancestor, left an indelible mark on you, infusing you with arcane magic. This font of magic, whatever its origin, fuels your spells."
All sorcerers use arcane magic, by default. A psionic soul sorcerer casting magic missile, is using arcane magic, just like a wild mage or any other sorc subclass.
Now, the difference is that a psionic soul sorcerer "harbors a wellspring of psionic power [...] this power is represented by your psionic talent die". So, a psi sorcerer using the die is using psionic power. And doing so while casting a spell, removes the need for components.
I see an obvious equation here: psionic power=no components.
You can twist yourself up in knots if you like. The UA is pretty clear that the subclasses are using psionic powers, and the one I mentioned also uses material components some of the time. There's no logical leap to psionics never require components that you can make there without also making some rather large assumptions, not in the case of spell-like abilities anyway.Yep. I totally notice that a magic user can turn a MAGIC SPELL into psionics and depending on success, remove components. This is not only not a Psion, but is proof that they view psionics as not requiring components. The psionic portion is removing the need for components from the MAGIC SPELL.
Theat UA article is our most recent evidence of where WotC is with psionics in terms of design. What it tells us is that they are looking at some psionic subclasses, which have pretty traditional non-component abilities. However, the only 'full caster' equivalent is still contained within the current magic system. There's no evidence there that a different 'full caster' equivalent would escape the magic system or not, or that they intend to create such a class at all. That doesn't mean they won't, but there's no reason to think that class will operate outside the magic system entirely.
The subclass uses the psionic talent die. So, sometimes psionic power can obviate material components. Cool. There's still no evidence for Max's claim that a full Psion will never need material components. Personally, I hope he's right, but hopes and evidence are two different things.
Maxperson
Morkus from Orkus
I got there without a single twist, though. It's very straightforward in its ability to remove components from a magical spell via psionics. If you are suggesting otherwise, you're the one twisting things.
So first, the magical spell is not a psionic power and it needs components like other spells, yes. Second, the subclass is in fact using a psionic power without the use of components. That power is called Psychic Sorcerery. Third, that psionic power being used is then removing in part or in whole, the need for components from the magical spell. At no point is the spell itself ever the psionic power being used.
Not one psionic power in the new UA uses a component. Several do use a resource. That being the psionic talent die.
It's not that I don't get how you're moving from A to B, I do, I just don't agree with you about what it means. Right now there are no spell-like psionic abilities that are separate from the casting rules. Every full caster psion ever designed for D&D has had access to a host of spells, or spell-like abilities if you prefer. So the Sorcerer in question is our only example of what a full-caster psion would look like in 5E, at least at this point in the design cycle. There's no other evidence of anything for what a full class Psion might look like, other than that it would use the psionic die mechanic.
Just because the psionic die sometimes removes the need for the usual trapping of arcane casting is evidence neither that a 'full psion' class would completely remove those requirements, nor that that class would somehow be created outside the current spellcasting rules.
