Incarnate by the Numbers (Todd)

Endarire · Oct 27, 2015

Originally posted by Todd:

Introduction

Ever since the release of Magic of Incarnum I have seen post after post where people say that the Incarnate is “weak” or that “it needs more skill points” or that it “can’t hold it’s own in melee” or that it was “only good as a dip class.”

My initial impression was actually somewhat similar. The class looked woefully underpowered at first glance. Yet a closer analysis gave me an entirely different perspective. What I did was break down what the class could and could not do mathematically by level. In general what I found was:

* The Incarnate can compete with the Rogue skill wise & has trapfinding.
* The Incarnate can be more durable in combat than a Fighter.
* Depending on alignment, the Incarnate can hold his own in melee or ranged combat.
* The Incarnate is nearly as good at single target blasting as a Warlock.
* The pure Incarnate is one of the most versatile classes in the game, having access to soulmelds that enhance mobility, resistances, and more ... all in addition to what was mentioned above.

That doesn’t seem weak at all to me.

However I think that it also helps to keep in mind what the Incarnate isn’t. With a title like Magic of Incarnum many folks expected the Incarnate to be able to fill the role that an arcane or divine caster does. He can’t.

* The Incarnate is a reasonable secondary healer but cannot match any existing healing class.
* The Incarnate has limited ability to buff others.
* The Incarnate cannot be a true blaster as he lacks the ability to affect multiple targets.
* The Incarnate cannot duplicate most spells.

What follows is some analysis and charts built using excel to back up some of these assertions.

Note: This is second version of this thread. I’ve rewritten much the first few posts as I found that I had an unfortunate tendency to repeat myself and that my writing was a bit less polished than I like.

The Incarnate as a Skill Monkey

Incarnate vs Rogue

More so than any other MoI class the Incarnate can shape a huge number of soulmelds that boost skills. It’s also interesting to note that, unlike the Totemist soulmelds, the Incarnate melds grant Insight bonuses in most cases so they will stack with items which grant Competence bonuses. Further the Incarnate can emulate things like Trapfinding via soulmelds further suggesting that this is a role that they might be able to fill.

Many Soulmelds grant either +2 or +4 to anywhere from 1 to 3 skills without needing to be bound to a chakra. This increases by +2 per essentia invested. In the chart below I’ve compared what a character who has maxed out a given skill could do vs what an Incarnate can do to a single skill with a +2 base soulmeld. I’ve shown the difference between the maxed out ranks & the soulmeld to show how many actual skill ranks an Incarnate would need to be able to perform at the same level.

In the table:
Level = levels in the Incarnate class.
Skill Ranks = the number of max class ranks possible
Meld Bonus = the bonus to a skill granted by a soulmeld.
Ranks Needed = how many ranks the Incarnate would need to actually have to match the maxed out skill.

Level Skill Meld Ranks Ranks Bonus Needed 1 4 4 0 2 5 4 1 3 6 6 0 4 7 6 1 5 8 6 2 6 9 8 1 7 10 8 2 8 11 8 3 9 12 8 4 10 13 8 5 11 14 8 6 12 15 10 5 13 16 10 6 14 17 10 7 15 18 12 6 16 19 12 7 17 20 12 8 18 21 14 7 19 22 14 8 20 23 14 9
So at 20th level an Incarnate would need 9 actual ranks in a skill to be on par with a maxed out skill. There is some variation here. The Incarnate will need 2 less ranks for a soulmeld that grants a +4 base bonus. if he has an Essentia focus item, or if he took the Improved Essential Capacity feat. If he has all three then potentially he would only need “real” 3 ranks to match.

Interestingly you can see that for the first few levels 0 or 1 skill ranks is all that is needed. This shows that an Incarnate who actually has 1, 2, or 3 skill ranks is going to outperform the typical skill based character in the early going.

So it appears possible for the Incarnate to keep up with at least some skills when compared to the typical Rogue, but how many?

With 8 skill points a level and most sanguine skills in question for a typical “skill monkey” being class skills a non-human Rogue can max out 8 + Int bonus skills. The human Rogue is going to have 9 + Int bonus.

An Incarnate on the other hand has a much harder time. Most skills in question are cross class and they have a measly 2 skill points per level. So most non-human Incarnates are going to only be able to cross-class max out 1 + ½(Int bonus) skills. A human with the Able Learner feat (from RoD) is better off and can cross-class max out 3 + Int bonus skills.

So at first brush it appears that the Incarnates will simply not be able to keep up with the Rogue.

Not so.

Inc. Skill = Total Incarnate Skill Points for a given level
Meld VSP = “Virtual” Skill Points from a typical single unbound soulmeld
Rogue Skill = Total Rogue Skill Points for a given level
Melds Needed = Number of soulmelds the Incarnate would need to match the Rogue

Level Inc. Meld Rogue Melds Skill VSP Skill Needed 1 8 12 32 2.33 2 10 12 40 2.92 3 12 18 48 2.33 4 14 18 56 2.72 5 16 18 64 3.11 6 18 24 72 2.63 7 20 24 80 2.92 8 22 24 88 3.21 9 24 24 96 3.50 10 26 24 104 3.79 11 28 24 112 4.08 12 30 30 120 3.50 13 32 30 128 3.73 14 34 30 136 3.97 15 36 36 144 3.50 16 38 36 152 3.69 17 40 36 160 3.89 18 42 42 168 3.50 19 44 42 176 3.67 20 46 42 184 3.83
The Incarnate will only need to shape 2 to 4 soulmelds to match the rouge’s total skill points. For this example I used a non-human and didn’t take Intelligence into account. If you add Int to the numbers then the Incarnate needs to shape slightly more soulmelds to match the Rogue’s total since he is getting roughly half the benefit the Rogue is. The total shifts to being roughly 3 to 5 soulmelds needed. If you make both builds human and give the Incarnate the Able Learner feat then the numbers go back to 2 to 4.

Taken together these numbers indicate to me that the Incarnate will have trouble matching the Rogue in the raw number of maxed out skills and at high levels his total skill bonus from cross class ranks + soulmeld for a single skill could be slightly less than the rouge in most builds. However, if he shapes skillful melds the Incanate can have more overall equivalent skill points than the typical Rogue.

Shaping Soulmelds

Another major factor worth looking at is the maximum number of soulmelds that the Incarnate can shape and chakra binds. In general none of the Incarnate’s soulmelds will need to be bound to get skill bonuses. The Theft Gloves are a possible exception and must be bound to the Hands Chakra in order for the Incarnate to have Trapfinding. This means that the Incarnate will need to be at least 4th level in order to take over that party role. However there are only a small number of soulmelds that need to be shaped to emulate skills.

* Acrobat Boots – Balance, Escape Artist, Jump, & Tumble.
* Dragon Tail - Balance & Swim (competence bonus)
* Elder Spirit - Intimidate, Knowledge (arcana), Knowledge (history), & Use Magic Device
* Keeneye Lenses – Spot.
* Mage’s Spectacles – Decipher Script, Spellcraft, & Use Magical Device.
* Necrocarnum Touch – Slight of Hand & some Bluff checks.
* Psion’s Eyes – Autohypnosis, Psycraft, Use Psionic Device
* Riding Bracers – Handle Animal & Ride.
* Sailor’s Bracers – Swim, Profession (sailor), & Use Rope.
* Silvertongue Mask – Bluff, Diplomacy & Sense Motive.
* Theft Gloves – Disable Device, Open Lock, and Slight of Hand.
* Truthseeker Goggles - Gather Information, Search, & Sense Motive.

You will notice the lack of any Hide / Move Silently bonuses. If you want this in your build you will probably either need to multiclass or spend a feat on Shape Soulmeld to pick one of the Totemist melds. I personally suggest Worg Pelt for this.

For a trapfinder the Theft Gloves and Truthseeker Goggles are pretty much mandatory. After that the additional soulmelds can be tweaked to fit what you are trying to do. A social build might shape the Silvertongue Mask and Truthseeker Googles. The UMD build will need Mage’s Spectacles.

On most days it should be enough to shape just 2, 3 or 4 of these meaning that skilled builds are possible even at the lower levels ... however each skill boosting souldmeld shaped means one less slot for a combat focused soulmeld so low level Incarnates will have to pick and choose what they can do carefully. In the mid levels though an Incarnate should be able to shape a mixture of both types of soulmelds and do just fine.

Multiclassing

Multiclassing raises some interesting possibilities for the Incarnate. Prefixing Incarnate with 1 level of Rogue, Ranger, or Bard can result in a noticeable increase in total skill points and result in a character that is able to “keep up” in more maxed out skills or function with fewer skillful melds than a pure Incarnate. He can also surpass a single class build of either Rogue or Incarnate skill bonus wise this way.

Similarly a Rogue 5 / Incarnate 1 / Rogue 6-19 is going to be able to boost his skills tremendously in comparison to a pure Rogue. For instance, with maxed out skill ranks in UMD the Rogue / Incarnate will have +35 to his roll before items, stats, feats, and whatnot, vs +23 for the pure Rogue.

Sadly boosting skills really takes a hit in some of the more common dual progression PrCs like Soulcaster and Sapphire Hierarch. The Incarnate’s class bonus to max essentia capacity at levels 3 & 15 really grant a huge bonus towards keeping up with the pure skilled character. Without them the dual meldshaper / caster is going to need as many as 13 actual ranks in a skill to keep up with a maxed skill and may need to shape anywhere from 3 to 6 soulmelds to match the skill point total of a rogue.

Conclusion

The pure Incarnate can fill the Skill Monkey role starting at level 1 and the Trapfinder role starting at level 4.

An Incarnate will play differently than most Rogue or Bard builds and the skill distributions will look slightly different but the class can be highly effective in this capacity.

One thing to watch out for is that the Incarnate cannot do some things the Rogue can skill wise. He has no ability to mimic Appraise or Listen for instance. It’s harder for him to be the sneaky party scout the way a Rogue can. Still the Incarnate has his own unique strengths as well.

Originally posted by Todd:

The Incarnate in Combat

Sooner or later in DnD it always comes to this, right?

In any event the Incarnate is billed as a melee capable character in the favor text. The poor BAB & d6 HP would seem to argue against it but there are various soulmelds and class features that can help.

Increasing to-hit:
* Bloodwar Gauntlets (Evil) – Moral bonus (melee only)
* Incarnate Avatar (Chaos) – Insight bonus (ranged only)
* Incarnate Avatar (Law) – Insight bonus (melee only)
* Incarnate Weapon (all) – Enhancement bonus (melee only)
* Necrocarnum Shroud (Evil) – Profane
* Incarnum Radiance (Law) – Unnamed bonus (melee only)

Increasing damage:
* Apparition Ribbon (all) – Insight bonus (vs. Incorporeal only)
* Bloodwar Gauntlets (Evil) – Moral bonus (melee only)
* Bluesteel Gauntlets (all) – Insight bonus
* Incarnate Avatar (Evil) – Insight bonus (melee only)
* Incarnate Weapon (all) – Enhancement bonus (melee only)
* Necrocarnum Shroud - Profane
* Necrocarnum Weapon (Evil) – Profane
* Riding Bracers (all) – Insight bonus (when mounted only)
* Sighting Gauntlets (all) – Insight bonus (ranged weapons only)
* Incarnum Radiance (Evil) – Unnamed bonus (melee only)

Increasing AC:
* Armguards of Disruption (all) – Insight bonus (vs. Undead only)
* Astral Vambraces (all) – Deflection bonus
* Crystal Helm (all) – Deflection bonus
* Incarnate Avatar (Good) – Insight bonus
* Lammasu Mantle (Good) – Deflection bonus (vs. Evil only)
* Riding Bracers (all) – Insight bonus (when mounted only)
* Incarnum Radiance (Good) – Unnamed bonus

Increasing HP:
* Astral Vambraces (all)
* Necrocarnum Vestment (evil)
* Vitality Belt (all)

Soulmelds that do damage directly:
* Armguards of Disruption (all) – Disruption (vs. Undead only)
* Dissolving Spittle (all) – Acid ranged touch attack
* Dragon Tail (all) - Tail natural melee attack
* Flame Cincture (all) – Fire ranged touch attack (must absorb fire first)
* Incarnate Weapon (all) - Weapon melee attack
* Lighting Gauntlets (all) – Electrical melee touch *or* adds to melee
* Mantle of Flame (all) – Fire damage to adjacent attackers
* Necrocarnum Shroud (Evil) – Negative levels by touch attack
* Necrocarnum Touch (Evil) – Profane melee or ranged touch

Emulate Feats:
* Astral Vambraces (all) – Cleave, Improved Bull Rush, Mobility, Power Attack, or Trip (if you have an existing slam attack).
* Sighting Gloves (all) – Precise Shot
* Wind Cloak – Deflect Arrows

Other Defenses:
* Adamant Pauldrons (all) – Negate Crits or Sneak Attack
* Astral Vambraces (all) – DR (magic) & Energy Resistance
* Enigma Helm (all) – SR vs Divinatioin & Immunity to Charm
* Fellmist Robe (all) – Concealment
* Impulse Boots (all) – Evasion & Uncanny Dodge
* Necrocarnum Vestment (Evil) – Cold Resistance & Immune to stunning and death effects or Immunity to Disease.
* Pauldrons of Health (all) – Immunity to being sickened or nauseated & energy drain.
* Planar Chasuble (all) – Energy Resistance
* Planar Ward (all) – Blocks possession, enchantment, & compusion
* Spellward Shirt (all) – SR
* Strongheart Vest (all) – Immunity to Energy drain and death effects.
* Wind Cloak (all) – DR (magic) vs ranged weapons

It’s very apparent just from this list that that Law Incarnates have the most things stacking to increase to-hit followed very closely by Evil. Evil Incarnates have the most stacking damage boosters by far. Good Incarnates have the most stacking AC boosts. Chaos Incarnate can boost ranged weapons, both to-hit and damage, better than any of the others.

However not all of these soulmelds can or will be shaped at the same time. In addition to the limits on soulmelds shaped by level several of these occupy the same Chakra locations ... though the Double Chakra feat taken at 9th level helps somewhat, allowing two soulmelds to be shaped and bound to the same location.

Essentia can be a problem too. Having 9 combat melds at 20th level is nice, but the Incarnate is likely to only be able to fully power 3 or 4 of them.

Melee Combat

An Evil Incarnate might shape his Incarnate Avatar and his Incarnate Weapon at first level. He would add Necrocarnum Weapon & get his Incarnum Radiance at 3rd level, however he would not be able to power all three fully until later levels. At 9th level he might spend a feat to allow double Chakra binds on the Arms and shape both Bloodwar Gauntlets and his Incarnate Weapon.

A Law Incarnate might shape the Incarnate Avatar and Weapon at first level too. However he has no match for the Necrocarnum Weapon. At 9th level he would add Bluesteel Bracers using the same double Chakra bind feat.

This is what their bonuses would look like by level:
To Hit = Bonus to hit (not incuding BAB)
Damage = Bonus to damage (not including anything else)
IB = Item Bonus from an Incarnum Focus for the arms.
FB = Feat Bonus if the character took Expanded Essentia Capacity.

Level Evil Evil Law Law To Hit Damage To Hit Damage 1 1 3 2 1 2 1 3 2 1 3 2 8 5 2 4 2 9 5 2 5 2 12 6 2 6 3 16 8 3 7 3 16 8 3 8 3 16 8 3 9 6 19 8 6 10 6 21 9 6 11 6 21 9 6 12 8 26 11 8 13 8 26 11 8 14 8 26 11 8 15 10 33 14 10 16 10 33 14 10 17 10 33 14 10 18 12 38 16 12 19 12 38 16 12 20 12 40 17 12 IB 14 42 18 14 FB 15 43 19 15
Though he will have fewer attacks by default the Incarnate, before non-weapon items & feats, will have about the same or better chance to hit as a fighter & will have reasonable to very strong bonus damage to even things out.

Poor BAB remains a problem but there are ways to overcome this at least partially with feats and gear.

1. Skillful Weapon or other regular BAB booster
2. UMD & things like Divine Power
3. Dual Wielding
4. Going the AoO route via Tripping, Defensive Throw, or whatnot
5. Going the Charge route with Leap Attack
6. Non-standard attacks like Disarm

With the huge damage bonus the Evil Incarnate will really shine in TWF builds. They also have good trip potential since their Incarnate Weapon is a flail thus making the AoO route potentially tempting as well.

Having a better to-hit bonus the Lawful Incarnate will be good at disarming and make a reasonable TWF. However they can make fantastic chargers since their huge to hit bonus can offset any BAB loss. By taking Power Attack, Leap Attack, and any other charge related feats they can do good damage.

Note: if you choose to focus on tripping or disarming then the Mauling Gauntlets soulmeld is worth a look. It may be well worth it to burn a feat to add this to a build.

Good Incarnates can have monster AC, but will be unable to come close to the melee attack bonuses that Lawful and Evil can muster. They will likely do better to focus on the direct damage soulmelds like Lightning Gauntlets and Dissolving Spittle.

Chaos Incarnates have fantastic mobility & can see use as a charger or spring attacker, but I like them better as ranged attackers.

Given a huge AC the Good Incarnate could theoretically be good at Defensive Throw. However the trouble will be getting all the feats needed.

Overall the Evil Incarnate looks stronger to me in melee by default. Lawful and Chaotic Incarnates have some potential, especially if they take the Necrocarnum Acolyte feat which will allow them to shape necrocarnum soulmelds.

Ranged Combat

All Incarnates have the relatively rare ability to boost damage output on ranged attacks via Sighting Gloves or Bluesteel Bracers. Only Chaotic Incarnates have the ability to boost ranged to-hit in this class though.

I built a table, but I’m hesitant to post it here as there are literally 19 columns and I fear that it would be more confusing than anything else. In any event what I assumed was that a character would slowly build towards a +10 bow by level 20. I gave the bow +1 to-hit & damage at levels 2, 6, 10, 14, & 10. The bow got an enhancement at levels 4, 8, 12, 16, & 20. For a full BAB type like a fighter I gave the bow damage boosters at levels 4 & 8. The Chaotic Incarnate got a Skillful (+2) enhancement at 8th level.

The net results were that the Incarnate had fewer attacks but his to-hit bonus was similar at most levels & better at 1st level. The overall damage output for the Incarnate lagged a bit behind the fighter type at the early levels but actually pulled ahead once damage enhancers were added to the bow at higher levels. Adding Rapidshot to both bulds actually tilted things a bit more towards the Incarnate, especially in overall damage.

Of course the biggest issue with this is the artificial nature of the equipment in question. Not all games will be magic rich enough for a 20th level character to be toting a +10 custom bow, nor will all bow configurations be the same.

Full BAB archers will also have lots of feats (& spells if Ranger) that an Incarnate will be unable to get due to the lock of bonus feats or lack of pre-requisites. Not having cool feats like Improved Precise Shot, Ranged Disarm, Improved Multishot, & the like is a big difference. Spells like Arrowmind are sorely missed too.

The overall lack of feats even makes it harder to get basic stuff like Bow Proficiency & Rapidshot into the build at all. One potential workaround is multiclassing. A Ranger 2 / Incarnate 18 wouldn’t be bad for archery, though still not as strong as a pure Ranger.

There are a number of soulmelds that support archery in non-direct ways. Speed boosting soulmelds and the Chaotic Incarnate Aura make a huge difference in getting good position & avoiding melee. Mixing the Fellmist Robe and the Mantle of Flame will result in a miss chance for all attacks made from more than 5’ away & damage for any made closer than this.

Overall I would say that the Chaotic Incarnate makes a fair archer, but he isn’t really going to shine in this role the way a Ranger or Fighter type would. On the plus side though he can easily emulate archery accuracy & feats like precise shot meaning that he can “fill-in” temporarily in this role & do it more respectably than many non-archery focused melee builds can.

Dissolving Spittle

When the Warlock first came out folks initially focused on the classes ability to make a ranged touch attack every round at will. The Incarnate can do this too if he shapes Dissolving Spittle. Both classes have access to a standard action ranged touch attack that improves as they level up.

IB = Item Boost via Incarnum Focus.
FB = Feat Boost.
This latter will be Expanded Essentia Capacity for the Incarnate and it is worth noting that an Incarnate could benefit from this a bit earlier than the Warlock can benefit from his MetaSLA feats though Mortalbane will strongly tilt the favor back toward the Warlock. The bonus damage in the second round is in ( ). The Incarnate will get this via binding his soulmeld. The Warlock via Eldritch Essences like Brimstone Blast or Vitriolic Blast. The second value for the Warlock damage is that when using the Incarnum Blast Invocation.
Level Incarnate Warlock 1 2d6 1d6 2 2d6 1d6 3 3d6 2d6 4 3d6 2d6 5 3d6 3d6 6 4d6 3d6 (+2d6) or 5d6 7 4d6 4d6 (+2d6) or 5d6 8 4d6 4d6 (+2d6) or 5d6 9 4d6 5d6 (+2d6) or 6d6 10 4d6 5d6 (+2d6) or 6d6 11 4d6 6d6 (+2d6) or 7d6 12 5d6 6d6 (+2d6) or 9d6 13 5d6 6d6 (+2d6) or 9d6 14 5d6 (+5d6) 7d6 (+2d6) or 10d6 15 6d6 (+6d6) 7d6 (+2d6) or 10d6 16 6d6 (+6d6) 7d6 (+2d6) or 10d6 17 6d6 (+6d6) 8d6 (+2d6) or 11d6 18 7d6 (+7d6) 8d6 (+2d6) or 12d6 19 7d6 (+7d6) 8d6 (+2d6) or 12d6 20 7d6 (+7d6) 9d6 (+2d6) or 13d6 IB +1d6 (+1d6) +6d6 (0) FB +1d6 (+1d6) Max, Empower, Quicken, Mortalbane, etc.
Dissolving Spittle looks to have the raw damage advantage from 1st level up until about level 6 or 7. Around level 14 or 15 damage looks like it shifts back in the Incarnate’s favor however this is misleading. By that point the Warlock should have one of either Max, Empower, or Quicken if not all three. This will hugely boost his one round damage output. Also Eldritch Blast damage boosters are significantly cheaper than Incarnum Focus items so he should have a boost there that the Incarnate cannot count on. Finally there is SR. Dissolving Spittle is subject to SR at all levels. With Vitriolic Blast the Warlock can ignore this starting as early as 11th level and certainly by 14th.

Range is also a crucial factor. The Warlock’s blast has a base range of double what the Incarnate has and the Warlock can boost this significantly as early as 1st level. Additionally the Warlock will have access to multi target and area effect options that the Incarnate cannot match. The secondary effects of the Eldritch Blast are also noteworthy, especially at higher levels & the Incarnate has no real match for these.

All in all I would rate the Warlock’s Eldritch Blast as superior overall at most levels though Dissolving Spittle is not that far behind for single target effect.

One interesting note though is that Dissolving Spittle can be shared with an Animal Companion or Familiar with the Share Soulmeld feat. There have been a number of optimization builds that take advantage of this & it’s a very nice trick for a Soulcaster.

Durability in combat

Durability has also been mentioned as a problem for some Incarnates. As Zemyla notes below this isn’t necessarily the case. First since Con is the primary class stat most Incarnates will have plenty of HP in addition to their raw dice. The Vitality Belt can really help melee builds as well giving them even more HP.

Con = Consitiution Score
Inc. HP = Average base HP for the Incarnate at that level
Vit. Blet = HP from Vitality Belt
Inc. Total = Incarnate Base HP + Vitality Belt HP.
Fighter HP = Average base HP for a Fighter at that level with the same Constitution

Level Con Inc. Vit. Inc. Fighter HP Belt Total HP 1 14 5 1 6 7 2 14 11 2 13 15 3 14 16 6 22 22 4 15 22 8 30 30 5 15 27 10 37 37 6 15 33 18 51 45 7 15 38 21 59 52 8 16 52 24 76 68 9 16 58 27 85 76 10 16 65 30 95 85 11 16 71 33 104 93 12 17 78 48 126 102 13 17 84 52 136 110 14 17 91 56 147 119 15 17 97 75 172 127 16 18 120 80 200 152 17 18 127 85 212 161 18 18 135 108 243 171 19 18 142 114 256 180 20 19 150 120 270 190
Assuming a reasonable starting Con of 14 (and most Incarnates would do well to start with 15 or better) and no stat boosting equipment we can see that the 20th level Incarnate with this soulmeld will have more HP than a 20th level Fighter with the same Con score ... and both will have access to the same sorts of stat boosting equipment like Amulets of Health. Below 20th the HP total is close or slightly in the Incarnate's favor at most levels. Only at 1st & 2nd level does the fighter have an advantage. Also if the fighter choose to boost another stat, like Strength, the difference becomes even more pronounced in the Incarnate’s favor.

Multiclassing

As with many things multiclassing and PrCs can change some of the above analysis. An Ironsoul Forgemaster build could easily have meldshaper level 12 and +16 BAB ...and a lawful build here could be darn good in melee. Law Incarnate especially shines in some of these multiclass and PrC builds, notably the Cleric / Law Incarnate / Sapphire Hierach builds as noted by Khazra Reborn. The Incarnate bonuses to hit would carry the character through most combats and Divine Might & other buffs would stack with much of the Incarnate stuff in the really tough ones. If you add Divine Metamagic Persistant or Quicken ... wow.

However as with the skills multiclassing does hurt with some of the soulmeld bonuses ... and in that these builds often don’t get the Incarnum Radiance. This later with it’s unnamed bonus makes a big difference in some of the tables above.

Conclusion

The melee Incarnate is definitely doable with a Lawful or Evil build. Other Incarnates have just enough bonuses via soulmelds to be reasonably effective here but may be better off building towards ranged combat or strategies that use directly damaging soulmelds.

Originally posted by Todd:

Other Roles

Party Buffer

Lots of parties look to their Bards, Clerics, and Arcane types for buffing of one sort or another. From Bardic music to spells like Cat’s Grace buffing is a staple need of every party. Many of the Incarnate’s soulmelds and class abilities can be used to make others around them better suggesting that they might be able to fill this party role.

Starting at Incarnate 7 the Incarnate’s Incarnum Radiance class ability can be shared with nearby allies. Allies of the Law Incarnate & Evil Incarnate will appreciate getting up to +5 to hit or +10 to damage via unnamed bonus. The Good Incarnate’s bonus of +5 to AC is nice. The Chaos Incarnate’s bonus of +50’ to movement will be a boon for any party with slow members like the typical melee dwarf ... though it is unclear to me what happens to the bonus movement if the party member actually moves out of range. The Law & Evil effects compare reasonably with the Bard’s Inspire Courage though they are more focused and useable many fewer times per day.

Many soulmelds also produce effects useable by others. Luck Dice can be like a limited use at will bless spell. Bluesteel bracers can provide +2 to initiative to allies as a constant effect. Lammasu Mantle (good only) can grant a +2 deflection bonus to AC. However this is about it.

Clearly, even though these soulmelds are all constant or at will effects, there is no comparison to most standard buff spells or even close to what a good buff focused build can do. Still the soulmeld bonuses and Incarnum Radiance are nice and I would say that the Incarnate could function as a secondary buffer ... especially if they focus on UMD and have some scrolls or wands that can aid in this regard.

Marshal is an interesting choice for dip if the character is looking at being good at buffing. A Marshal 1 / Incarnate 19 would have more skills, better proficiencies, and a single Marshal Aura to add to his Incarnate stuff. Similarly a Bard 16 / Incarnate 4 or Wizard 3 / Incarnate 2 / Soulcaster 10 / War Weaver 5 could be a very good buffer having both “always on” buffs and situational spells.

Party Healer

A primary healer the Incarnate isn’t, however he can be a surprisingly effective secondary healer. Two soulmelds in particular boost healing. Lifebond Vestments allow the Incarnate to transfer wounds from allies to themselves, reducing the damage in the process, and the Therapeutic Mantle boosts all healing magic used on the Incarnate. When used together they can produce solidly effective out of combat healing.

Via UMD or a one level dip a class like Ranger, Cleric, Druid, or Bard the Incarnate can use a Wand of Cure Light Wounds on himself.

The table below shows how much damage an Incarnate can heal via the Lifebond Vestment & how much of a bonus the Incarnate gets to a single CLW spell used on himself.

LevelHealCLW Bonus 163 273 3135 4145 5155 6217 7227 8237 9247 10257 11267 12329 13339 14349 154011 164111 174211 184813 194913 205013
At 20th level, the Incarnate can heal 37 points of damage per CLW charge on average all day every time for as much damage as the party has when out of combat. Things are a bit more limited at the lower levels where it is harder to use UMD reliably and the Lifebond Vestment is more limited in how frequently it can be used, still this combination scales fairly reliably.

50 points of direct healing per action at 20th level is not going to have the combat effect of Heal or even a nice Mass Cure. However out of combat the Incarnate is probably going to be able to be more efficient at healing than the Cleric.

Worth noting here a multiclass Incarnate Cleric is an even more solid healer than either class is alone. When bound, Therapeutic Mantle can be used to add directly to the spells casts by the character and out of combat & the Lifebond/Therapeudic combo becomes even more potent than the single class version. Bards, Druid, and other healers benefit this way too but Cleric is an especially synergetic choice.

Conclusion

While probably not as good in any given role as a specialist character the Incarnate is something of a Swiss Army Knife. Depending on his choice of soulmelds shaped, feats, and equipment he can fill a lot of roles in a primary or secondary capacity. It’s the kind of character that can be really self sufficient or particularly appreciated in a play group where one night the fighter is out and the next one the cleric is AWOL.

The mechanics of Incarnum make the Incarnate a potentially powerful choice at low levels ... but less so at higher levels.

As a pure class character the skill monkey role is probably the one most easily filled by the Incarnate. With the right choices melee damage dealer is also doable. Ranged damage dealer is also a possibility but more difficult to really optimize.

Incarnate is also a strong choice as a dip for many builds. Totemist is probably better for any sort of natural weapon build but for adding versatility & boosting weapon combats Incarnate is likely more optimal.

Originally posted by Todd:

General notes when building an Incarnate

Take the Bonus Essentia feat & take it at 6th level if you can. The Incarnate desperately needs essentia to be effective.

On the other hand I would tend to avoid many of the other Incarnum feats in a pure Incarnate build. The +1 essentia is very nice however Incarnum feats must have essentia put into them first thing in the morning and keep it stuck there for 24 hours. In most cases I would think that the flexibility offered by soulmelds would be better than essentia stuck into a static feat.

Double Chakra is nice on some builds. Skill based builds will benefit from Double Chakra (brow) since so many skilled melds use it. Combat builds may look at Double Chakra (arms).

Split Chakra is needed to use magic items on slots that have bound melds. I personally like Split Chakra (throat) if you are using Dissolving Spittle. If you are a trapfinder Incarnate you will benefit from Split Chakra (hands) as your Theft Gloves will always be bound. Split Chakra (soul) is manditory if you want to bind anything to your soul chakra and still wear armor.

Shape Soulmeld is a really nice way to pick up some Totemist or Soulborn melds. Worg Pelt has been mentioned as a Totemist candidate but Totem Avatar, Blink Shirt, and Winter Mask are all very nice as well. For tripping builds Mauling Gauntlets rule. Hunter’s Circlet is nice if you want to add healing & survival to a skill emulation build.

It’s discussed in more detail in posts further down in the thread but the Shape Soulmeld feat should allow you to shape the soulmeld selected + any you gain by Incarnate class levels. Additionally you can bind a meld gained this way using your Incarnate chakra binds.

*More Later*

Originally posted by zombiegleemax:

Really good stuff, thx much. I kept seeing people post that Incarnates can be built for combat but until now I didn't understand how.

Originally posted by griff_goodbeard:

Great job man. This is what the "Incarnates with Class" article should have been.

Originally posted by dnjscott:

Yeah, this is good stuff. My experience was also that mixing the Incarnate was what made them shine... an Incarnate/Rogue, as you had mentioned, had unbelievable skill bonuses... we had to bust out the ELHB for his Diplomacy checks...

Originally posted by lordofprocrasti...:

Very useful analysis. Easy to read, sound comparisons, and sufficiently comprehensive without getting bogged down in endless "what if" hybrid comparisons.

Bravo, Todd.

Originally posted by zombiegleemax:

Skillful Weapon or other regular BAB booster

The major obvious problem with this is that you can't use a skillfull weapon whilst your hands have chakra binded to them...
How about multiclassing for a better BaB? cleric4/incarnate6 followed by the theurge style prc results in decent chakra related powers aswell as the ability to casts persistant divine might...
I also believe the melee builds to benefit hugely from the VoP as you can then get enhancement aswell as profane/compotence/luck/etc. bonuses to attack/damage.

Originally posted by tleilaxu_ghola:

Awesome stuff... especially the soulmeld lists on the combat section. Perhaps you could include one for the skills section? Eitherway, I'm going to steal those lists and add them to my "useful soulmelds collection" in my Incarnum Tricks/Builds/Combos thread. Due credit will be given, of course.

Originally posted by zombiegleemax:

Another good reason why the incarnate makes a good tank is because he needs to pump Con anyway, so he gets a huge number of HP.

Hmm.

Incarnate 20:
Con 14 + 5 level + 5 tome + 6 amulet = 30 (+10)
Soulmelds: Vitality belt (8 essentia using Expanded Soulmeld Capacity and Incarnum Belt)

HP: 20d6 + 20 * 10 + 20 * 8 = 412 hp

Originally posted by Todd:

Thanks for the kind words everyone!

The major obvious problem with this is that you can't use a skillfull weapon whilst your hands have chakra binded to them...

This isn’t quite true Khazra. Weapons don’t normally take up item slots so they can be used even if the hands and arms have soulmelds bound.

There are a couple of exceptions to this though.

The Incarnum Weapon soulmeld takes up the Arm Chakra ... however you don’t need to bind it thus, in theory, you could use a magic bracelet and have an Incarnum Weapon shaped. I’ve pointed this out elsewhere too but things get really messy by RAW if when you start looking at what happens when you shape an Incarnum Weapon on an arm where you already hold a real weapon. But that’s for the tricks thread I would think....

Also a normal magic weapon can be bound to a Chakra if one has the right feat ... but again this isn’t manidtory.

How about multiclassing for a better BaB? cleric4/incarnate6 followed by the theurge style prc results in decent chakra related powers aswell as the ability to casts persistant divine might...

I agree 100% about the Law Incarnate / Cleric ... it’s a monster with the right buffs.

I also believe the melee builds to benefit hugely from the VoP as you can then get enhancement aswell as profane/compotence/luck/etc. bonuses to attack/damage.

I’m beginning to think that one reason that Good Incarnates have no real match for Necrocarnum is VoP. Just about the only thing that doesn’t stack is the weapon Enhancement bonuses from VoP.

Originally posted by Todd:

Another good reason why the incarnate makes a good tank is because he needs to pump Con anyway, so he gets a huge number of HP.

HP: 20d6 + 20 * 10 + 20 * 8 = 412 hp

Great point! I’m going to have to add something like this. However how did you get 52 HP out of 20d6?

Awesome stuff... especially the soulmeld lists on the combat section. Perhaps you could include one for the skills section? Eitherway, I'm going to steal those lists and add them to my "useful soulmelds collection" in my Incarnum Tricks/Builds/Combos thread. Due credit will be given, of course.

Thanks! Feel free to do as you want with the listings. Your thread was one of my first inspirations to write this.

The skill section does list some soulmelds there, but it is pretty bumpy compared to what I did in the combat post. I’ll work to clean that up tonight.

Originally posted by zombiegleemax:

Awesome thread

Originally posted by zombiegleemax:

Great point! I’m going to have to add something like this. However how did you get 52 HP out of 20d6?

Because I'm an idiot who tried to do everything mentally. :{

Originally posted by zaxter:

This is a fantastic guide, Todd.

Are you going to do others for Soulborns and Totemists?

Originally posted by Todd:

I've cleaned up the Skill meld section Tleilaxu_Ghola.

Zemyla, I've been there!

For this post though I rotted my brain and did all the number crunching in Excel. I have been assimilated....

Are you going to do others for Soulborns and Totemists?

Thanks Zaxter! I don't have plans for doing more right now. There have been a lot of posts about the Totemist already & I think that it's a little clearer how they can be melee powerhouses or breath weapon blasters. I've been suprised at how little love the Soulborn has gotten here. IMO they are a solid class. Maybe I'll have to give that a go at some point. Still I've foucused much more on the Incarnate for now.

Originally posted by tleilaxu_ghola:

You know, I never noticed the correlation between chaos and ranged builds until this thread came up. I'll try to hash out a ranged build in a few minutes. I'll post it on my incarnum build thread. Suffice it to say this thread has rekindled my slump of interest in Incarnum magic. The aim of my ranged build will be to show case high level incarnum use.

Your Skillmeld section will now be added as well. Good work.

Originally posted by zombiegleemax:

Great work Todd! I hope that my builds will be able to keep up with yours.

IMO evil and chaotic Incarnates makes the most dangerous hit and run characters ever.

I mean, if I made a evil Incarnate into a flyer with airstep sandals and perhaps adding lightning gauntlets you can make some really nasty flyby attacks.

I also played a level 20 Chaotic Incarnate a while back. He somehow ended up in a one on one duel. The thing was that my ground speed was about 100 ft faster than the paladin and I had spring attack. when he was half dead I lured him into a trap by ending my round within 40 ft from him and readying my attack against his charge. The end result was pretty much Paladin on pike. My point is that Chos and speed should not be neglegted, I am not saying that you are complaining Todd but most other complain.

Btw, Todd, I can't make any sense about the part you wrote about the forge master. Don't you mean +12 bab or am I missing something?

Once again, Thank you for a job well done.

Originally posted by Todd:

My point is that Chos and speed should not be neglegted, I am not saying that you are complaining Todd but most other complain.

I didn't talk about speed much since it seems pretty straight forward to me. All Incarnates can have serious movement if they want it ... though the Chaos Incarnate is going to outdo all the others.

I was kind of alluding to that when I mentioned that I thought that they made great chargers. I also consider mobility to be a great thing for any archer build. Full attack - fall back with single shot - full attack - fall back with single shot - etc. With the stuff a chaos incarnate can do he might never be touched.

It's not that I don't like this ... heck I'm going to be running an Incarnate archer build in a few weeks ... it's just that the number support the melee Incarnates a bit better IMO.

Btw, Todd, I can't make any sense about the part you wrote about the forge master. Don't you mean +12 bab or am I missing something?

For example a:
Ranger 3 / Fighter 1 / Law Incarnate 1 / Ironsoul Forgemaster 10 / Deepwarden 4

would have:
BAB 16
Meldshaper Level 12 (for essentia pool, max soulmelds shaped, etc.)

.... you know I just did that off the top of my head ... but I kind of like it. Con to AC, huge to hit bonuses, strong skills. That would be a fun build to play.

Originally posted by klode_me:

I didn't talk about speed much since it seems pretty straight forward to me. All Incarnates can have serious movement if they want it ... though the Chaos Incarnate is going to outdo all the others.

I was kind of alluding to that when I mentioned that I thought that they made great chargers. I also consider mobility to be a great thing for any archer build. Full attack - fall back with single shot - full attack - fall back with single shot - etc. With the stuff a chaos incarnate can do he might never be touched.

It's not that I don't like this ... heck I'm going to be running an Incarnate archer build in a few weeks ... it's just that the number support the melee Incarnates a bit better IMO.

For example a:
Ranger 3 / Fighter 1 / Law Incarnate 1 / Ironsoul Forgemaster 10 / Deepwarden 4

would have:
BAB 16
Meldshaper Level 12 (for essentia pool, max soulmelds shaped, etc.)

.... you know I just did that off the top of my head ... but I kind of like it. Con to AC, huge to hit bonuses, strong skills. That would be a fun build to play.

But still with a maximum equal to Dex maximum for the armor, but since Incarnum is all about con.( and wis.) it would be a better stat than dex.

Otherwise, this is a by far a greater guide than that WoTC published the other day. Great job, Todd.

Cheers
klode_me

Originally posted by Todd:

I've made a fairly significant revision to the first post in this thread.

It occurred to me to calculate how many total skill point an Incarnate could emulate via Soulmelds ... and how that would compare to a Rogue's total skill points.

If the Incarnate shapes, Acrobat Boots, Mage’s Spectacles, Silvertongue Mask, Theft Gloves, and Truthseeker Goggles at 20th level and allocates 6 essentia to each (without feats he is a few points shy of this naturally) ... he will have gained 216 ranks.

Compare that to the Rogue’s 184 skill points before Int or race.

So the Incarnate can have 216 skill points from soulmelds plus whatever he has from class levels.

I think that over 250 skill points before adding Int qualifies as a viable skill class.

Originally posted by zombiegleemax:

Psst!

Level Evil Evil Law Law To Hit Damage To Hit Damage 1 1 3 2 1 2 1 3 2 1 3 2 8 5 2 4 2 9 5 2 5 2 12 6 2 6 3 16 8 3 7 3 16 8 3 8 3 16 8 3 9 6 19 8 6 10 6 21 9 6 11 6 21 9 6 12 8 26 11 8 13 8 26 11 8 14 8 26 11 8 15 10 33 14 10 16 10 33 14 10 17 10 33 14 10 18 12 38 16 12 19 12 38 16 12 20 12 40 17 12 IB 14 42 18 14 FB 15 43 19 15
The evil incarnate and the law incarnate can also get a bonus to damage/hit with Planar Chasuble bound to the Brow chakra which increases the bonus from the Incarnium Radiance by one step.

Originally posted by zombiegleemax:

Todd, as the starter of the thread, i was wondering whether you think the ironsoul forgemaster is worth it? And are you a fan of any of the other prcs for an incarnate?

Lastly, anyone think its worth taking 2 levels of a full BaB to get a 3rd attack with your incarnate? I was thinking either soulborn 2 (for some essentia?) or playing a changeling and taking warshaper 2 (stat increases)? ANyone else think thats worth it at all?

Originally posted by flimflam:

I still don't see how an Incarnate can match the core base characters who are melee centric (Fighter, Paladin, Ranger, Monk). Can you show maybe some sample builds? Maybe up to 5th level? What feats would you pick? Where would you place your attribute points? What soulmelds would you take if we assume your "standard" adventure day will be a mix of social situations and a couple combats thrown in? I'd like to see some real numbers if possible.

Originally posted by griff_goodbeard:

I still don't see how an Incarnate can match the core base characters who are melee centric (Fighter, Paladin, Ranger, Monk). Can you show maybe some sample builds? Maybe up to 5th level? What feats would you pick? Where would you place your attribute points? What soulmelds would you take if we assume your "standard" adventure day will be a mix of social situations and a couple combats thrown in? I'd like to see some real numbers if possible.

I don't have time to work up a build myself, but here's a build Merricb put together over on the Incarnum FAQ thread.

LN Azurin Incarnate 20
Medium Outsider (Incarnum; Law)
Init +6; Senses: Spot +4, Listen +4
---
AC 43, touch 18, flat-footed 40
hp 152 (20 HD)
Resist Fire 10
Immune daze, paralysis, petrification, stun and slow
Fort +25, Ref +16, Will +21
--
Speed 20 ft (4 squares) or fly 10 ft (2 squares)
Melee +8 longsword +39/+34 (1d8+22 plus 8d6 electricity on first attack, lawful-aligned) or
Melee lightning gauntlets +30 touch (8d6 electricity)
Base Atk +10; Grp +17
Special Actions: Incarnum Radiance (in effect) +6 melee attack to all Lawful-aligned allies and self, lasts 11 rounds, 4/day; Perfect Meldshaper (1/day, for 7 rounds, max essentia in each soulmeld).
--
Soulmelds: Essentia 30; Capacity 6, 9 soulmelds, 5 binds
* Airstep Sandals 0 (feet, bound)
* Bluesteel Bracers 7 (arms): +2 init; +7 insight to melee weapon damage
* Incarnate Avatar 7 (soul, bound) +7 insight to melee attack
* Incarnate Weapon 8 (arms) +8 weapon, lawful-aligned
* Lightning Gauntlets 7 (hands, bound) 8d6 elect touch, or +8d6 elect to first melee weapon attack
* Lifebond Vestments 0 (heart, bound) heal others
* Mantle of Flame 1 (shoulders) 2d6 fire damage to all striking
* Planar Chausible 0 (brow, bound) resist fire 10; increase inc. radiance 1
* Vitality Belt 0 (waist) +20 hp per essentia; +4 morale bonus on Con checks
--
Str 24, Dex 19, Con 26, Int 16, Wis 18, Cha 13
Possessions: Combat Gear plus Belt of Magnificence +6 (MHb); Manual of Gainful Exercise +4 (used); bracers of Incarnum Focus; gauntlets of Incarnum Focus; +5 mithral platemail; +5 hvy shield; +5 ring of protection; +5 amulet of natural armour; +5 cloak of resistance; 225,000 gp in extra equipment
Feats: Bonus Essentia; Double Chakra (arms); Expanded Soulmeld Capacity x3; Healing Soul; Split Chakra (soul); Weapon Focus (longsword)
Skills: Concentration +35; Knowledge (the planes) +26.

A little rough, but you get the idea. Note that all Lawful allies of the Incarnate are also getting a +6 untyped bonus to melee attacks!

CN Azurin Incarnate 20
Ranged: +5 Composite Longbow +30/+25 (1d8+17) or
Ranged: +5 Composite Longbow +28/+28/+23 (1d8+17), rapid shot or
Ranged: Dissolving Spittle +26 touch (8d6 acid + one extra round)
Spd: 80 ft
Str 16, Dex 24, Con 26
Items: Belt of Magnificence +6, Shirt of Incarnum Focus; Gloves of Incarnum Focus; manual of dexterity +4
Soulmelds: Dissolving Spittle, Incarnate Avatar, Sighting Gloves, Keeneye Lenses (bound to soul!), Spellward Shirt
Feats: Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, Extra Soulmeld Capacity x2, Bonus Essentia, Double Chakra (soul), Weapon Focus (bow)

NG Azurin Incarnate 20
Melee: Lightning Gauntlets +14 touch (8d6 electricity)
Ranged: Dissolving Spittle +16 touch (8d6 acid + one extra round)
AC: 56. (+7 shield, +3 Dex, +13 armour, +5 deflection, +5 natural armour, +6 aura, +7 insight)
Items: +5 mithral full plate, belt of magnificence +6, +5 hvy shield, +5 ring of protection, +5 amulet of natural armour
Soulmelds: Incarnate Avatar, Dissolving Spittle, Lightning Gauntlets

NE Azurin Incarnate 20
Melee: +8 flail +27/+22 (1d8+43, plus 8d6 electricity on first attack; +7 to confirm criticals; evil)
Soulmelds: Incarnate Avatar, Lightning Gauntlets (hands), Incarnate Weapon (arms), Bloodwar Gauntlets (arms), Necrocarnate Weapon (hands)
Feats: Double Chakra (hands), Extra Soulmeld Capacity x3, Weapon Focus (Flail), Double Chakra (arms)
Str 24, Dex 20, Con 26
Items: Gauntlets of Incarnum focus,

Bloodwar gauntlets: +1 morale to attack, +7 morale to melee damage and rolls to confirm criticals
Incarnate avatar: +14 insight to melee damage
Necrocarnate Weapon: +8 profane to melee damage

Originally posted by antendren:

Lastly, anyone think its worth taking 2 levels of a full BaB to get a 3rd attack with your incarnate? I was thinking either soulborn 2 (for some essentia?) or playing a changeling and taking warshaper 2 (stat increases)? ANyone else think thats worth it at all?

Alignment considerations make soulborn impossible, and warshaper isn't full bab.

Originally posted by Todd:

Sephiroth, good catch. I'm not a huge fan of Planar Chasuble, but that's mostly because I wish that it were better.

Khazra, Antendren is correct about the alignment problem with Soulborn. I've seen dips suggested into Totemist though that wouldn't help your BAB issue. I like Warshaper in general, but personally think that it would be better for a Totemist build rather than an Incarnate one.

I like Ironsoul Forgemaster generally but it seems to me that you have to use is as a replacement for Incarnate levels ... once you go into this PrC you will not return. It just doesn’t make sense to. And once you finish the PrC then it would seem to make more sense to go into another melee class so as not to loose more BAB. What you end up with is a melee build that can do some nice incarnum tricks. I like the build I posted above. I like finishing with Battlesmith for an item building powerhouse. War Mind is a good finish too.

A lot of the other PrCs seem that way to me too. You are usually better off using incarnate + a PrC to enhance the rest of the build rather than building up the Incarnate. Oddly we have a class that seems to do best as a dip or in sticking with it.

In building the Ranger 2 / Incarnate 4 that I'm going to play next week I immediately noticed the delayed progression of abilities in the 20 level plan. It reminded me a lot of how caster builds look when you take another class first. Every time you level up you can't help but to think something like: "If I were a pure X, then I could be doing Y."

If you aren't using Incarnate as a focused dip then your build is going to really rely on those soulmelds and the progression.

FlimFlam, I don’t have time to work up 4+ builds off the top of my head ... but I’m not sure that we have to. One reason I put all those tables up there was so that you could see for yourself.

At 5th level both the Incarnate and all the melee classes are only going to have one attack. With a +1 weapon most of them will be doing +6 to-hit / +1 damage before Str and whatnot. The Evil Incarnate will be +4 / +12 if he sticks with his Incarnate Weapon ... or +5 / +13 if he uses a +1 weapon and the Bloodwar Gauntlets instead. Those number did include the Incarnum Radiance which is only useable once per day at that level but even if you take it out we are still taking +5 hit / +9 dmg for the Incarnate vs. +6 / +1 for the fighter. Yes the fighter will probably have higher Str but not by much an Evil Incarnate will likely fund Con, Str, Wis in pretty much that order where the fighter is going Str, Con.

The Incarnate will have a few less HP naturally, but Vitality Belt makes the Fighter and the Incarnate even at 5th level as shown above. An Evil Incarnate will likely have spent his 1st & 3rd level on the same sorts of melee things that fighters would ranging from Power Attack to Improved Trip. The raw number of feats will go the fighter’s way. HP & Rage go to the Barbarian. AC will probably go the Incarnate’s way if he wants to sacrifice a bit of damage output. I haven’t really shown this but he essentially has access to the equivalent of a +2 ring of protection via Crystal Helm.

It’s at 6th level that things get complicated. The Fighters and whatnot will have their second melee attack & all get a feat or two. The Incarnate will almost certainly spend his feat on Bonus Essentia and will not be getting a second attack. However he gets’s a pretty big boost to damage. So the fighter is looking at +7 / +2 to hit & +2 damage while the Incarnate is still just getting one attack at +6 to-hit ... however that one attack is +12 damage before Str & Incarnum Radiance if it lands....

Like I said the Incarnate isn’t going to be doing battlefield control like the fighter can. He doesn’t have the feats. But he can easily survive melee and can get in some very good whacks.

Originally posted by nekoworldorder:

Great stuff Todd! One quibble though.

You will notice the lack of any Hide / Move Silently bonuses. If you want this in your build you will probably either need to multiclass or spend a feat on Shape Soulmeld to pick one of the Totemist melds. I personally suggest Worg Pelt for this.

No love for Kruthik Claws? It gives you a +4 to Hide/Move Silently, better than the Worg Pelt's +2, and can be bound to hands or shoulders instead of the Pelt's hands and feet. The important thing is the shoulders, since if you're the skill monkey, you want hands free for Theft Gloves and your feet from for Acrobat Boots. There aren't any skillmelds for the incarnates shoulders, and the big bad meld, Mantle of Flame, is kinda counterproductive if you want to hide...exactly how does a dude on fire hide in a dark alley?

I've always viewed the incarnate as being a scout who can take tons of punishment. An chaos incarnate with Crystal Helm, Impulse Boots(b), Theft Gloves(b), Bluesteel Bracers, Keeneyes Lenses(b), Dissolving Spittle(b), Vitality Belt(b), Spellward Shirt, Fellmist Robe makes a great scout...good AC, an initiative bonus, fantastic HP, constant trueseeing, SR, miss chance against ranged/reach, trapfinding, evasion, uncanny dodge, immune to Con drain and damage, bonus to will and reflex saves and a nasty acid attack...really, what the hell is going to surprise this guy? Give him a shield with the deathward ability and it starts taking a ridiculous amount of effort to kill the guy.

Originally posted by Todd:

No love for Kruthik Claws? It gives you a +4 to Hide/Move Silently, better than the Worg Pelt's +2, and can be bound to hands or shoulders instead of the Pelt's hands and feet. The important thing is the shoulders, since if you're the skill monkey, you want hands free for Theft Gloves and your feet from for Acrobat Boots. There aren't any skillmelds for the incarnates shoulders, and the big bad meld, Mantle of Flame, is kinda counterproductive if you want to hide...exactly how does a dude on fire hide in a dark alley?

I wondered if someone was going to bust out Kruthik Claws on me.

I’ll be honest, I considered them. I just liked the Worg Pelt better. Part of it has to do with secondary effects. Kruthik Claws give very little benefit if bound. That, in and of itself, isn’t a huge issue ... but if I’m blowing a feat on something I want to get the most bang that I can for the cost. Thw Worg Pelt on the other hand gives a nice boost to speed when bound to the feet. If a feat is spent on them they can be used as a sneak booster and a replacement for something like Cerulean Sandals.

The Shoulder bind is also something of a minor problem for me. In a stealth / movement focused build then it’s probably a solid choice. But in a build that tries to be a generalist it’s a bit less so. I really like Therapeutic Mantle on any build that tries to heal. Mantle of Flame, Lammasu Mantle, and a few other interesting melds also use the shoulders. Unlike the Worg Pelt, Kruthik Claws aren’t going to mimic any of these.

I can see good arguments either way but I still like Worg Pelt.

I've always viewed the incarnate as being a scout who can take tons of punishment. An chaos incarnate with Crystal Helm, Impulse Boots(b), Theft Gloves(b), Bluesteel Bracers, Keeneyes Lenses(b), Dissolving Spittle(b), Vitality Belt(b), Spellward Shirt, Fellmist Robe makes a great scout...good AC, an initiative bonus, fantastic HP, constant trueseeing, SR, miss chance against ranged/reach, trapfinding, evasion, uncanny dodge, immune to Con drain and damage, bonus to will and reflex saves and a nasty acid attack...really, what the hell is going to surprise this guy? Give him a shield with the deathward ability and it starts taking a ridiculous amount of effort to kill the guy.

Your build has no sneak. When I think scout I want a character with reasonable hide & move silently. Your meld selection doesn’t do that.

I also see mobility as being a minor problem for your suggestion. Chaos Incarnate gets mobility via a bound Incarnate Avatar, it’s Incarnum Radiance, or the usual ways. You didn’t shape the Avatar, instead you have the Keeney Lenses bound to the soul. You didn’t shape Cerulean Sandals, choosing Impulse Boots over them. That means that you are only getting speed boosts via items (if you spent a feat to use items on the feat with a bound soulmeld), party buffs, or the very limited uses of Incarnum Radiance. Non-Chaos Incarnates don’t even get the Radiance boost.

True seeing and some of the other meld combinations you mention are really nice at 20th level ... but a lower level PC is going to have a much harder time pulling all this off.

Your suggestion *is* hard to kill though.

Personally I would probably go for Theft Gloves (bound), Truthseeker Goggles, and the Worg Pelt (bound, if possible) as my “base” for an Incarnate scout. You have trapfinding, sneak, & enhanced movement.

Then I would customize further based on perceived need and my level. If I wanted the rest to be combat oriented then some of the stuff you suggested would be great. If I wanted to be able to talk my way out of problems then Silvertongue Mask would be in the mix. For a backup healer I would add the Lifebond Vestments & Therapeutic Mantle. It would all depend on what I wanted my Incarnate’s party role to be and what I anticipated dealing with.

If you use Kruthik Claws then you will need to either shape the Chaos Incarnate Avatar or the Cerulean Sandals. With a feat you could do both the Impulse Boots and the Sandals too if you really want evasion.

Originally posted by nekoworldorder:

*chants* Back from the dead, bump up this thread!

I wondered if someone was going to bust out Kruthik Claws on me.

I’ll be honest, I considered them. I just liked the Worg Pelt better. Part of it has to do with secondary effects. Kruthik Claws give very little benefit if bound. That, in and of itself, isn’t a huge issue ... but if I’m blowing a feat on something I want to get the most bang that I can for the cost. Thw Worg Pelt on the other hand gives a nice boost to speed when bound to the feet. If a feat is spent on them they can be used as a sneak booster and a replacement for something like Cerulean Sandals.

Holy cow, I just reread the Share Soulmeld feat and saw the part about being able to bind the soulmeld to any chakra you can normally. Never noticed that before! Congrats, you just converted me, especially since I tend to think Lammasu Mantle is a lot better than it's given credit for. Worg Pelt for life!

Your build has no sneak. When I think scout I want a character with reasonable hide & move silently. Your meld selection doesn’t do that.

Well, the implication was I was using Kruthik Claws. However, I'm still a nimrod because trapfinding is worthless without search, and I'm using keeneye lenses over truthseeker googles. :embarrass

I also see mobility as being a minor problem for your suggestion. Chaos Incarnate gets mobility via a bound Incarnate Avatar, it’s Incarnum Radiance, or the usual ways. You didn’t shape the Avatar, instead you have the Keeney Lenses bound to the soul. You didn’t shape Cerulean Sandals, choosing Impulse Boots over them. That means that you are only getting speed boosts via items (if you spent a feat to use items on the feat with a bound soulmeld), party buffs, or the very limited uses of Incarnum Radiance. Non-Chaos Incarnates don’t even get the Radiance boost.

Your suggestion *is* hard to kill though.

Of course, outside spitting acidic loogies, he doesn't do much else. ^_^;;;

I'll admit, I've been using the Incarnate as mainly a dip class; a combat class with two, three, four or six levels of Incarnate sees a dramatic increase in flexibility and power, and a Wizard 3/Incarnate 2/SoulCaster 10 gets some great increases in survivability as well as spell DC. The set of melds I threw together above was really off the top of my head, mainly cobbled together from the two PC's I'd played so far, the above Soulcaster and a Fighter/Incarnate/Dervish. I guess my positive input boils down to 'incarnates are great at taking a beating!'

All right, what about taking the afformentioned tactical route? I'm getting a rough idea of ussing Cobalt Expertise and a Skillful Spiked Chain as an evil Incarnate. Essentially, use the chain to disarm and trip, then follow up on your prone opponent with an attack enhanced by Bloodwar Gauntlets and Incarnate Avatar. Heck, since a spiked chain is a two-hander, you could even get in Cobalt Power. You could use Mantle of Flame to make people not want to hit you, or Vitality Belt to increase your staying power. Of course, you'd pretty much need to be human and take some fighter levels to fit in the feets you would need, but...

Now that I know about being able to bind a soulmeld you got with Shape Soulmeld, I'm thinking that you could use Shadow Mantle bound to your shoulders to get a big combat boost; what are all the penalties for attacking and defending against an invisible creature again?

Originally posted by Todd:

Shadow Mantle is interesting to me for another reason. It boosts listen. That’s the one scouting skill that we haven’t really talked about yet and one that the Incarnate can’t boost normally. On that basis alone it’s not a bad suggestion for a dedicated scout build.

The darkness I’m a bit more iffy about. It’s strong for concealment in combat but it’s not exactly stealthy in some situations. Furthermore it can be negated in ways the Fellmist Robe’s concealment cannot.

Effects of Darkness
- Denies foe within that can’t see the ability to take a 5’ step
- Foe must attack your square not your person without blindsight, etc.
- 50% miss chance for attacks that target your square

I’m totally with you in regards to Incarnate as a dip class. It’s good. Very very good.

I’ve been thinking Warmage 8 / Incarnate 2 / Soulcaster 10 for some time now. The Incarnate soulmelds balance out a lot of the Warmage’s normal weaknesses. He can be skillful, mobile, have good defenses, or whatnot from the melds and still have his spells as a primary attack. I’m starting to think about ways to use the Soulcaster’s added damage alongside the Warmage Edge & the Extra Edge feat. There have got to be some spells that could benefit from all that extra damage.

For your Dervish build Incarnate is good for another reason ... the damage bonus. Dual Weilding works best when you get to add damage and soulmelds like Bloodwar Gauntlets or Bluesteel Bracers could really do a lot of good in that kind of build. Soulborn might be better if you are looking to keep BAB maxed out though.

Tripping is good for Evil Incarnate’s even without a spiked chain. Since their Incarnate Weapon is a fail most of the stuff you mention is applicable whenever they shape that meld even without multiclassing or spending a feat on Exotic WP. Critical feats would be Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, & Combat Reflexes. I agree that you would do best to dip into Fighter if adding more feats that this. Fighter 1 / Incarnate 19 would still get you the Soul Chakra Bind and add an extra feat. Fighter 2 / Incarnate 18 would loose the Soul Chakra but net you a third attack at 20th level. Either way should work IMO.

Originally posted by zombiegleemax:

...exactly how does a dude on fire hide in a dark alley?

The same way that a dude who isn't on fire hides, because Mantle of Flame never says that you take penalties to Hide.

Originally posted by Todd:

The same way that a dude who isn't on fire hides, because Mantle of Flame never says that you take penalties to Hide.

However it does grant "shadowy illumination" in your square. That could be worth a penalty in some situations.

Originally posted by tleilaxu_ghola:

Just a thought. What if you could get the second highest level chakras open by 12th level? What would that affect for an incarnate?

Here's the build that allows exactly that:

Wilder 12
Feats: Earth Sense, Earth Power

Use wild surge to boost ML by 4 and Earth power to boost it by 1 for a total of +5 ML. Now manifest open chakra augmented to 17 pp. Voila, you can open any chakra you like and have decent manifesting abilities. For the low cost of two feats it ain't bad.

Anyways, just something to chew on.

Originally posted by nekoworldorder:

Shadow Mantle is interesting to me for another reason. It boosts listen. That’s the one scouting skill that we haven’t really talked about yet and one that the Incarnate can’t boost normally. On that basis alone it’s not a bad suggestion for a dedicated scout build.

True, I was thinking more of the combat applications for it.

I’m totally with you in regards to Incarnate as a dip class. It’s good. Very very good.

I’ve been thinking Warmage 8 / Incarnate 2 / Soulcaster 10 for some time now. The Incarnate soulmelds balance out a lot of the Warmage’s normal weaknesses. He can be skillful, mobile, have good defenses, or whatnot from the melds and still have his spells as a primary attack. I’m starting to think about ways to use the Soulcaster’s added damage alongside the Warmage Edge & the Extra Edge feat. There have got to be some spells that could benefit from all that extra damage.

For your Dervish build Incarnate is good for another reason ... the damage bonus. Dual Weilding works best when you get to add damage and soulmelds like Bloodwar Gauntlets or Bluesteel Bracers could really do a lot of good in that kind of build. Soulborn might be better if you are looking to keep BAB maxed out though.

I played a Wizard 3/Incarnate 2/Soulcaster 10 in a game, starting at level 6. For a time he lagged behind, but the soulmelds just gave him a ridiculous amount of versatility, and if I used a few divination spells to see what was coming up, selecting soulmelds was easy. If you do ever try out you Warmage Soulcaster, I cannot stress how much Vitality Belt, Fellmist Robe and Impulse Boots will help you out. Also, with Share Soulmeld, your familiar doesn't suck anymore, especially if you're wearing a Vitality Belt and Dissolving Spittle.

The Dervish Incarnate was a last second thing; I got Magic of Incarnum as my 4th level neutral good fighter went to 5th. Decided to head for Fighter 4/Incarnate 6/Dervish 10, and though I on got to level 17, it turned out super-spiffy. I never went anywhere without Bluesteel Bracers and Mantle of Flame, and varied my other melds based on what we thought we would be doing that day.

Tripping is good for Evil Incarnate’s even without a spiked chain. Since their Incarnate Weapon is a fail most of the stuff you mention is applicable whenever they shape that meld even without multiclassing or spending a feat on Exotic WP. Critical feats would be Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, & Combat Reflexes. I agree that you would do best to dip into Fighter if adding more feats that this. Fighter 1 / Incarnate 19 would still get you the Soul Chakra Bind and add an extra feat. Fighter 2 / Incarnate 18 would loose the Soul Chakra but net you a third attack at 20th level. Either way should work IMO.

True, but the spiked chain has reach and can be enchanted with the Skillful property, along with any other enchantment, which just seems to outclass the Incarnate Weapon meld, though I might wait to take EWP for the chain until I had enough cash to slap Skillful on it. I might try to right up a mock build for this later on.

...exactly how does a dude on fire hide in a dark alley?

The same way that a dude who isn't on fire hides, because Mantle of Flame never says that you take penalties to Hide.

True, but using just the shadowy illumination Todd mentions, I think a lot of DM's would Rule 0 in a common sense penalty in a lot of situations. It may be fair game on the CharOp boards, but I'd be hard-pressed to find fault with the DM giving NPC's a bonus to their Spot checks to notice a light source emminating from behind an object during anything but broad daylight.

Originally posted by Tempest_Stormwind:

Just a thought. What if you could get the second highest level chakras open by 12th level? What would that affect for an incarnate?

Here's the build that allows exactly that:

Wilder 12
Feats: Earth Sense, Earth Power

Use wild surge to boost ML by 4 and Earth power to boost it by 1 for a total of +5 ML. Now manifest open chakra augmented to 17 pp. Voila, you can open any chakra you like and have decent manifesting abilities. For the low cost of two feats it ain't bad.

Anyways, just something to chew on.

Won't work. Earth Power does not let you break the manifester level cap. It lets you manifest a power you could normally manifest, but you pay one less for it (so in this case you'd spend 11 pp for a 12pp power, with the additional +4ML and +4pp coming from Wild Surge).

WIll work at level 13, though.

Originally posted by kilroo:

Won't work. Earth Power does not let you break the manifester level cap. It lets you manifest a power you could normally manifest, but you pay one less for it (so in this case you'd spend 11 pp for a 12pp power, with the additional +4ML and +4pp coming from Wild Surge).

WIll work at level 13, though.

Never played a Wilder and most of what I know about Incarnum is that since it came out you can take two feats to get evasion, but can you overchannel to pull this off?

Originally posted by tleilaxu_ghola:

Doh. I didn't know that about earth power. Aight, then it still does work at 13th level.

With overchannel it may be accomplished no earlier than 15th level which is pretty high up there.

Alternatively, if your DM allows orange ioun stones to work via the clarity rule with ML, then you can get this going a level earlier... at 12th level as originally promised.

Originally posted by kilroo:

Heh, that's not what I was asking, but I looked up the answer. What I was looking for was the fact that a wilder cannot wild surge and overchannel at the same time.

I'm not sure I see why the Earth Power trick doesn't work though. Is the power in question a first level power?

Originally posted by Todd:

The Law Incarnate as a Disarm master.

Since disarm attempts are based on opposed attack rolls the Law Incarnate should be able to shine at this.

Basic Setup
Class: Incarnate
Feats: Combat Expertise, Improved Disarm, & Cobalt Expertise.
Soulmelds: Incarnate Avatar (Law) & Incarnate Weapon.
Misc: Incarnum Radiance (Law)

At 20th level before Stats & other gear he has +35 to Disarm checks.

More Optimized
Class: Incarnate
Feats: Two Weapon Fighting, Combat Expertise, Improved Disarm, Cobalt Expertise, Improved Essentia Capacity, Expanded Soulmeld Capacity (Incarnate Avatar), & Expanded Soulmeld Capacity (Incarnate Weapon)
Soulmelds: Incarnate Avatar (Law) & Incarnate Weapon.
Equipment: Random "Skillful" weapon in off hand, Incarnum Focus (Arms) & Incarnum Focus (Soul)
Misc: Incarnum Radiance (Law)

At 20th level before Stats & other gear he has +45 to Disarm checks.

Point of Comparison
Class: Fighter
Feats: Combat Expertise, Improved Disarm
Equipment: +5 one-handed non-light weapon

At 20th level before Stats & other gear he has +29 to Disarm checks.

Incarnate by the Numbers (Todd)

Endarire

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