Incense of Meditation

[Scion]

Prayer is clearly not a restful activity in D&D.

Your conclusion is diseperate from your logic chain. One does not lead to the other.

I have an apple
It is red
All apples are red

False.

Besides that, your initial assumptions may or may not be correct. You have to prove that they are.

obviously I'm not going to convince you.

You are apparently trying to convince me that english works in a different way than english works. So no, you are not going to be able to convince me. All spells that the divine caster knows are spells that he has. They are his. Just because he can cast divine spells does not mean that whatever other spells he can cast are not his as well.

 

[Scion]

hey veril, if I have an orange ioun stone which part gets the bonus?

If I cast dispel magic do I have to pick whether it effects arcane 'or' divine?

If I pick up the empower feat do I have to pick whether it works for my arcane things only or my divine things only?

This is not an 'nth degree' of precision, this is them saying 'all' instead of 'divine'. If they had meant it the other way it would take a single word to put it where they want it. That is all, just one word.

Until then however...

 

[mikebr99]

<snip>
This is not an 'nth degree' of precision, this is them saying 'all' instead of 'divine'. If they had meant it the other way it would take a single word to put it where they want it. That is all, just one word.

Until then however...

No... if it was really meant to work your way, they would have said Divine Spellcasters & multi-classed Divine Spellcasters would get this benefit for ALL spells, divine or otherwise.

Mike

 

[Scion]

No... if it was really meant to work your way, they would have said Divine Spellcasters & multi-classed Divine Spellcasters would get this benefit for ALL spells, divine or otherwise.

So you are saying that if they had meant all spells instead of saying 'all spells' they would have said something like, 'all spells from both divine and arcane'?

Spells is already a defined term. In order to get only some of the spells you further define it as divine or arcane. Spells by default means either/or, hence why dispel magic just says that it dispels 'spells' not 'arcane spells and divine spells' or some other such strangeness.

If dispel magic was only castable by either arcane or divine (but not both) then would you make it only effect the kind of magic it came from? After all, it is a divine/arcane person casting it so by your reasoning it would only make sense that it would have to specifically state it worked on both and one would assume that if it only said 'spells' then it would only be the version it came from.


But still, as the broken record goes, the item says it must be activated by a divine caster but 'all' of his spells that he prepares are maximized. All. Not just his divine ones.

 

[mikebr99]

So you are saying that if they had meant all spells instead of saying 'all spells' they would have said something like, 'all spells from both divine and arcane'?

Right.. the spell says:

divine spellcaster lights a block of incense of meditation and then spends 8 hours praying and meditating nearby, the incense enables him to prepare all his spells as though affected by the Maximize Spell feat.

As you mentioned, divine spellcaster is a defined term... with a defined spell list.

There is no mention of anything other then benefits to a divine caster. And by default, you do not read any more into a spell or ability, then what is exactly in the description.

But still, as the broken record goes, the item says it must be activated by a divine caster but 'all' of his spells that he prepares are maximized. All. Not just his divine ones.

Again... you are adding more then the description spells* out.

*no pun intended


Mike

 

[Scion]

Right.. the spell says: As you mentioned, divine spellcaster is a defined term... with a defined spell list.

Completely unimportant. So long as you qualify 'somehow' as a 'divine caster' it works. It doesnt matter what is on your spell list.

There is no mention of anything other then benefits to a divine caster. And by default, you do not read any more into a spell or ability, then what is exactly in the description.

You are reading way more into what it says than what it actually says.

Yes, you can use it if you are a divine caster.
No, this does not mean directly that it only works on your divine spells.


The item says, 'all of his spells'.

His refers to the person who activated the item.

Spells refers to spells. Nothing here about divine only.

So long as you prepare them after you use the item you are good to go.

The item itself provides no further restrictions, you are making those up yourself.


All is still all. If you wish to limit it feel free, but that isnt what the item says.

 

[werk]

SRD-Rest
To prepare her daily spells, a wizard must first sleep for 8 hours.

That's hard to misinterpret. Meditation and prayer are not sleep...

It's clearly a divine item, made only by clerics, and useable only by a divine caster.

Why are you working so hard to exploit this perceived rules loophole? If you are the DM, play it your way. If you are a player, hard cheese, STFU.

 

[Ovinomancer]

I am a Mystic Theurge. This makes me, at least to a degree, a divine caster. I sleep for 8 hours and am now rested. I light a block of incense of meditation and pray for the next 8 hours. At this time I prepare spells. They are maximized for the next 24 hours, because they are MY spells. Are my arcane spells mine? Or, do they belong to a different me?

The description of the item gives three things. First, who can use this item? A divine caster. Second, how is the item used? By praying for 8 hours within the specified radius of the burning incense. Third, what effect does this have? All spells that I prepare are maximized. Not all divine, just all. Just because all of these conditions are stated in the same sentence does not change this.

I agree that the intent is obviously that the item divine spells only, but the description is not that specific. If you like the intent, modify the item to fit. If you like the other, that's RAW.

AS to whether or not I feel the item is balanced when it includes arcane magic too, the answer is YES. A split caster will not be able to provide the same level of power that a straight caster can (and, yes, I am aware of the practiced spellcaster feat, which is an additional cost). The use of the item requires foresight and planning to be effective, and only works on healing and/or damaging spells. That said, when the character can pull this off, he deserves the full effect for his ~5000gp. IMHO.

 

[Scion]

Ovinomancer described how the item works well

Also, it isnt important whether or not I want to (ab)use it personally (I dont by the way), but it is important to realize where the rules are messing up or are unclear.

This is a case where errata of the item would be nice if it is indeed intended to only work for divine spells.

If it is instead intended for all of the divine casters spells they can leave it as written or spell it out even more clearly.

 

[werk]

but it is important to realize where the rules are messing up or are unclear.

This is a case where errata of the item would be nice if it is indeed intended to only work for divine spells.

If it is instead intended for all of the divine casters spells they can leave it as written or spell it out even more clearly.

I think we all know of many, many things in the rules that we wish were written better.

but wishin' is fo' suckahs...

I agree that the thuerge should get all their spells maximized (as ovi has detailed above...it doesn't say that a wizard must prepare spells IMMEDIATELY after resting), just that it was not the explicit intent of the item. There are two readings, as usual, RAW (with speculation do to omissions) and perceived intent (completely subjective).

.02 over and out