Increasing disparity between monster and player initiative

Being a bit old-school anyway, I prefer to be able to use more low-level monsters vs high level PCs, and have higher level monsters get progressively rarer. Having monsters have an edge in a few areas helps with that.
This is one of the reasons I'm looking forward to the "bounded accuracy" of Next. The window of levels during which monsters pose a threat to player characters should be much wider. And it makes throwing that many more of them at the party so much fun.
 

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I want to respond without reading any other reply.. so bear with me if I am redundant. I do not think Initiative disparity is too important. Alot of 4e feats give bonuses to initiative (at least 2 do; quick draw and improved initiative). And some races have increased Ini. Also, monsters are on the average weaker than pc'S so it seems fair that some monster get the first attack (after all 4e is gear toward having groups of low level monster and maybe 1 or 2 stronger monsters in an encounter... those low lv monster die quick, who cares if they get first hit. ... yeah a wizard/or other control class may change the battle if it goes first but thats wh you give it improved Ini. unltless you are pitting the PC against a monster that can kill them in 1 or 2 hits Ini isnt going to make or break a battle (i do understnad thatr Ini can give a fair amount of ADVANTAGE but it wont make or break a battle unless the Dm has designed the battle to be easy or hard.
 
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For what it's worth, I almost always experience the opposite problem.

PC Initiative far outstrips monster initiative. PCs can roll twice (or more) for initiative, get feat, item, and power bonuses to initiative. When I'm writing an adventure that has an initiative range for monsters of +17 to +25, say, and a party shows up where the lowest initiative the entire adventure is 43... that's fishy. (Combat Commander is a tad broken).

PCs can apply Dex, Wis, and/or Cha (more rarely) to initiative. Some PCs roll Perception for Initiative, or more rarely History.

Going first is _astoundingly_ useful. If a combat lasts 3 rounds, getting an extra turn over the opposition is potentially a 33% increase. In practice, it may be worth even more than that if it also has other tactical benefits (positioning, opening crowd control, being able to remove a linchpin before it goes, etc). I've seen a party where most combats took two rounds, and all but one PC went before all of team monster, and that last PC always went last. So he got only 1 turn per combat, instead of 2. That's demoralizing.

Anyhow, what I'm really getting at... is that both monsters and PCs should do initiative differently :)
 

For what it's worth, I almost always experience the opposite problem.

PC Initiative far outstrips monster initiative. PCs can roll twice (or more) for initiative, get feat, item, and power bonuses to initiative. When I'm writing an adventure that has an initiative range for monsters of +17 to +25, say, and a party shows up where the lowest initiative the entire adventure is 43... that's fishy. (Combat Commander is a tad broken).

PCs can apply Dex, Wis, and/or Cha (more rarely) to initiative. Some PCs roll Perception for Initiative, or more rarely History.

Yes, the game assumes PCs do assign some resources to an area in order to maintain parity with monsters - 'running to stand still'. But if they assign more than expected resources they can easily have the advantage.
 

Alot of 4e feats give bonuses to initiative (at least 2 do; quick draw and improved initiative).
PCs can roll twice (or more) for initiative, get feat, item, and power bonuses to initiative. [...] (Combat Commander is a tad broken). [...] PCs can apply Dex, Wis, and/or Cha (more rarely) to initiative. Some PCs roll Perception for Initiative, or more rarely History.
It's true that there are plenty of ways for PCs to gain ground on initiative, but what I'm highlighting is that (a) these character-building choices (even where slotted items are used, such as the Casque of Tactics) displace other choices and (b) they don't grant most PCs an advantage, but merely reduce an increasing disadvantage. These details are what make those choices similar to a "feat tax."

Going first is _astoundingly_ useful. If a combat lasts 3 rounds, getting an extra turn over the opposition is potentially a 33% increase. In practice, it may be worth even more than that if it also has other tactical benefits (positioning, opening crowd control, being able to remove a linchpin before it goes, etc). I've seen a party where most combats took two rounds, and all but one PC went before all of team monster, and that last PC always went last. So he got only 1 turn per combat, instead of 2. That's demoralizing.
For what it's worth, I agree that initiative is a dramatically important part of combat, but mostly for positioning. Defenders who roll poorly for initiative often have difficulty positioning themselves properly to fulfill their role. Ditto for controllers.
 

Maybe they should get better at some stuff and worse at some stuff, maintaining general power parity?
If this is a real design goal, it would be the only instance in 4e where this occurred (at least that I can think of). And, if it were the case, it should probably apply to monsters as well. Monsters generally just gain advantages as they go up in level. While it's true that some vulnerabilities scale up with level, (a) it's a relatively rare issue for monsters, whereas the initiative issue applies to the vast majority of PCs; (b)the vulnerability may or may be relevant in any given combat, while initiative will be an issue in ever fight; and (c) vulnerabilities do not scale consistently (as the notion you suggest would require them): reviewing a handful of epic tier monsters with a vulnerability, only the undead are consistently vulnerable 15, others are often only vulnerable 10, similar to many paragon tier monsters with vulnerabilities.

I'm not opposed to this notion. One of my favorite warforged characters intentionally neglected Reflex (although I didn't actively gimp it) because I liked to think of it as a clumsy automaton. It's just not a consistent design goal in 4e.
 

It's true that there are plenty of ways for PCs to gain ground on initiative, but what I'm highlighting is that (a) these character-building choices (even where slotted items are used, such as the Casque of Tactics) displace other choices and (b) they don't grant most PCs an advantage, but merely reduce an increasing disadvantage. These details are what make those choices similar to a "feat tax."
Indeed. Every epic character should take Superior Initiative (unless they have a high enough initiative from party-wide bonuses like warlords and items to negate the need)

Whether you take a theme for +4 power bonus to initiative or toss a +enh (that's +6, not +3) power or item bonus to initiative on your neck or armor hedges out some choices. Though not necessarily as much as you might think.

For what it's worth, I agree that initiative is a dramatically important part of combat, but mostly for positioning. Defenders who roll poorly for initiative often have difficulty positioning themselves properly to fulfill their role. Ditto for controllers.
Or for strikers, so they can kill a target before it goes. Or leaders, so they can give bonuses to the group or enable attacks when they help most.

Ie, everyone.

It doesn't help _healers_ necessarily, but that's not the best use of a leader anyways. Taking out enemies before they attack is effectively proactive healing.

Also, as soon as you reduce it to "we all go, then they all go" you've largely solved the equation.
 

Or for strikers, so they can kill a target before it goes. Or leaders, so they can give bonuses to the group or enable attacks when they help most.
I agree that everyone benefits from winning initiative, but I think that losing it sometimes often it more difficult to actually do what you're supposed to do. If a striker loses initiative, they can usually still do a lot of damage to an enemy. A leader can still buff and heal pretty effectively if s/he loses initiative. If a fighter, for example, is movement impaired before s/he can engage the lurker or artillery or skirmisher, they are gonna have trouble locking them down. And if the enemy spreads out so that the wizard can't target more than one or two at once, again, that's a serious problem for a controller.

Also, as soon as you reduce it to "we all go, then they all go" you've largely solved the equation.
If one side is given full domination of the first round, I think the combat starts out as troublesome too easily (which is excellent to jump right into the "OMG we're losing, start popping dailies, part of the fight). I was partial to making monsters all go on the same initiative count during a play by post. It translated to "some players go, monsters go, then players go..." It worked well, but doesn't really address the issue highlighted in the OP.
 

I guess - of my characters, I probably care the least about going first on my swordmage, cause I can Dimensional Vortex before my turn.

By far I care the most about going first on my artificer, then my invoker... then my fighter or warlord equally.

For monsters, I actually most like the idea of giving them set initiatives similar to the Easy/Medium/Hard Skill DCs. So you figure out an optimal initiative, reasonable initiative, and poor initiative, and set monsters to go Fast, Average, or Slow.

So, let's say at level 26, letting PCs win ties, you assume:
Fast - 46 (Lvl 13, Stat 8, Feat 8, Item and/or Power 6 = +35)
Avg - 35 (Lvl 13, Stat 3, Feat 8 = +24)
Slow - 25 (Lvl 13, Stat 1 = +14)

Now if you pick a reasonable array of enemies, everyone's got a chance to go before (or after) someone.
 


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