D&D 5E Increasing spell power

[the Jester]

I'm taking the discussion to cover all save-each-turn-spells, not just Hold Person.

But if we're changing the subject (since you're talking about "how powerful should a 2nd level spell be" rather than the "how much power does Hold Person lose because of its save-per-turn" the rest of us were having), let me say there's a case to be made that if you avoid ALL save-each-turn spells that ALSO require your Concentration, you're simply better off. Yes, your spell selection shrank, but at least you're free from one of the more obnoxious restrictions on spellcasters added by 5E.

I'm not sure why you call it a change of subject. You're arguing for making hold person more powerful than a 2nd level spell ought to be in 5e in that particular case. I'm arguing that most of the suggestions in this thread err on the side of making hold person overpowered.

In general, the save ends mechanic is really more of a duration measuring thing than anything else. Instead of lasting 1d4 rounds, it's lasting until you make a save. I get what you're saying about avoiding save ends + concentration spells, and that's certainly a valid approach to a spellcaster. However, I've found that most creatures don't make those saves too easily, so 'save ends' often means that a creature is out for half the combat or more. I don't know how much 5e you've played, but most monsters don't have really great save bonuses on their Wis saves. So far in my experience, 'save ends' mostly just means that the creature has a chance of re-entering the combat before it's over.

 

[jodyjohnson]

This is an interesting point. Do you have an example of how the spell could work according to your preference?

Most of my preferences are strongly tied to how I want Hit Points, Healing, and other game mechanics working to simulate a narrative genre rather than simulating how the game world works. Thus there will always be fundamental disagreements over these issues and my solutions since they speak to how individuals want the rules to work.

However, possible solutions would be to use the HP mechanics as a means of deciding effectiveness (Sleep already does this - a certain amount of HP worth of foes are slept with no save starting with the lowest).

My preference is that all attacks/spells do 'hit' point reduction (HP as plot or hero points) and what happens at 0 hp is determined by the nature of the attack or spell. Reduced to 0 by Sleep - target is asleep. Reduced to 0 by Hold - target is Held. Reduced to 0 by Cutting Words - target flees or surrenders. Reduced to 0 by a lethal weapon - injury and possible death. The flavor of the spell matches up with the end result of the spell.

Prior to that very little 'actually' happens in the game to the PCs. I would treat most other non-characters in a different way but as DM I am already in control of how many HP they have.

If the Evil Queen's 3rd level Mass Hold Person spell does 8d6 paralysis damage to the villagers I already know that 28 hp damage is enough to Hold them all even on a save. Because she could have just as easily hit them with a Fireball and killed them outright.

My second option would be to disregard the Save as duration mechanic but allow creatures a non-action to break a hold spell or other paralysis through force of will when physical danger is imminent. Taking 1 HD/spell level or CR in psychic damage.

But then we're getting into House rule territory to the point of making another version of the game. The way I want to handle HP is very much different than the majority of tables want (HP as injury avoidance rather than how many hits one can sustain).

 

[redrick]

My main problem with Hold and Sleep spells is that they are used contrary to every genre except the 'D&D' genre.

The 5th edition version is balanced with how they are normally used in the D&D genre (spells we cast on enemies to make them easier to kill - often at no risk). Often as an indicator of 'smart' or 'clever' play.

The issue is primarily one where they were IMO originally added as iconic spells in the Fantasy genre where if you wanted to kill someone with magic, you did so directly (with a literal 'save or die' spell). Sleep and Hold were for when you didn't want to kill (at least not immediately).

It is more difficult to balance for both since the genres play differently. My preference would be to make the spell behave in a way that rewards Fantasy genre play while still allowing D&D genre play (despite my distaste for what feels like anti-fantasy play).

The concept is referenced in the DMG under the Inspiration point section for rewarding adherence to genre conventions.

This is certainly a worthy goal!

That being said, it seems that Sleep already adheres to a more genre-friendly approach, in that it has a duration of an hour, so long as the creature is not disturbed (eg by hitting it with a weapon). Sleep is a great spell for taking a character off the board for a little while, without killing them. When I have cast sleep in games, we often tie that character up at the end of combat.

Hold Person could be used in a similar manner to restrain a higher hp creature. Once the creature is Held, you can go about restraining it in a more permanent manner. This won't work in the middle of a larger combat, because the Held creature might break free of the spell before you finish dealing with his or her allies, but it could still have its applications.

 

[MarkB]

This is certainly a worthy goal!

That being said, it seems that Sleep already adheres to a more genre-friendly approach, in that it has a duration of an hour, so long as the creature is not disturbed (eg by hitting it with a weapon). Sleep is a great spell for taking a character off the board for a little while, without killing them. When I have cast sleep in games, we often tie that character up at the end of combat.

Hold Person could be used in a similar manner to restrain a higher hp creature. Once the creature is Held, you can go about restraining it in a more permanent manner. This won't work in the middle of a larger combat, because the Held creature might break free of the spell before you finish dealing with his or her allies, but it could still have its applications.

That's actually the only way we've used Hold Person so far in our recently-started campaign - someone was sneaking around the lair we'd just cleared out, and we spotted him just after he swiped a valuable item. The cleric Held him before he could flee, then we tied him up and interrogated him.

I'm sure we'll see the spell used plentifully in combat too, but it certainly has utility as part of a non-lethal takedown.

 

[Skyscraper]

Most of my preferences are strongly tied to how I want Hit Points, Healing, and other game mechanics working to simulate a narrative genre rather than simulating how the game world works. Thus there will always be fundamental disagreements over these issues and my solutions since they speak to how individuals want the rules to work.

However, possible solutions would be to use the HP mechanics as a means of deciding effectiveness (Sleep already does this - a certain amount of HP worth of foes are slept with no save starting with the lowest).

My preference is that all attacks/spells do 'hit' point reduction (HP as plot or hero points) and what happens at 0 hp is determined by the nature of the attack or spell. Reduced to 0 by Sleep - target is asleep. Reduced to 0 by Hold - target is Held. Reduced to 0 by Cutting Words - target flees or surrenders. Reduced to 0 by a lethal weapon - injury and possible death. The flavor of the spell matches up with the end result of the spell.

Prior to that very little 'actually' happens in the game to the PCs. I would treat most other non-characters in a different way but as DM I am already in control of how many HP they have.

If the Evil Queen's 3rd level Mass Hold Person spell does 8d6 paralysis damage to the villagers I already know that 28 hp damage is enough to Hold them all even on a save. Because she could have just as easily hit them with a Fireball and killed them outright.

My second option would be to disregard the Save as duration mechanic but allow creatures a non-action to break a hold spell or other paralysis through force of will when physical danger is imminent. Taking 1 HD/spell level or CR in psychic damage.

But then we're getting into House rule territory to the point of making another version of the game. The way I want to handle HP is very much different than the majority of tables want (HP as injury avoidance rather than how many hits one can sustain).

Very interesting take on the game and how you could houserule mechanics to obtain a corresponding narrative result. I'm personally not looking for a modified version of D&D itself (because as you say what you're proposing pulls on deep roots) and consequently this would not be a solution I'd be looking at myself, but I really like what you idea brings to the reflexion of the game and how mechanics can be tied to a narrative. Kudos!

 

[Skyscraper]

I must really again thank everyone who is participating to this thread, I honestly did not expect such an interesting conversation to arise from this question. Really, good stuff.

One of my question remains unanswered: is anyone aware of other spells than hold person that have a "save every round" mechanic, that would be (adversely or not) affected by a change to this rule?

******

Presently, I'm thinking about using the rule proposed in this thread, of allowing a first save when the spell is cast, then a second save on the creature's first turn, and that's it: the spell would then last until the end of its duration with no additional saves.

I prefer this houserule to the one I proposed initially (save each round, starting from the second round only after being affected by the spell).

What I like about the save-on-round-1-only rule, is that it increases spell power as I wish to achieve, while also addressing the aspect of uncertainty raised by @CapnZapp, albeit in a limited way: you are uncertain if the creature will un-hold on its first turn, but once that point is passed, you can simply leave the creature alone and deal with it at the end of battle.

I'm thinking about removing the auto-crit against paralyzed creatures, also, to address the concerns of many posters here that the increased duration of the spell is likely to mean higher damage being dealt to paralysed creatures (mostly to avoid my monsters critting PCs if they have no way of un-holding at some point, e.g. if the cleric is the one who's paralysed). This concern is partly addressed by the fact that the spell will have an unlimited duration, i.e. beyond round 1, the creature is held for a full minute. This change in duration and in damage to paralysed creatures will hopefully change the spell's very core use, i.e. shift it from a damage target back to a spell whose use is to take a creature out of combat.

I'm keeping a save on round 1 for the held creature, to address the concern expressed by many posters that the spell would be outright too powerful it its duration is extended.

I'm also toying about increasing the spell level for Hold Person to level 3. Do you think it would make sense? I'm not sure I wish to do this however. I admit that, while balance is certainly a noble goal in designing a game, I don't really mind if it doesn't exist in my game.

 

[Wolf118]

I did a search on the PHB spell list for spells which have a saving throw at the end of each of the target's turns and one saving throw only. The number after the spell is the level, and the 'c' after the number means its a Concentration spell:

Saving throw at the end of each turn
Blinding Smite – 3c
Blindness/Deafness – 3
Compulsion – 4c
Confusion – 4c
Crown of Madness – 2c
Ensnaring Strike – 1c
Entangle – 1c
Evard’s Black Tentacles – 4c
Eyebite – 6c
Hold Monster – 5c
Hold Person – 2c
Power Word Stun – 8
Ray of Enfeeblement – 2c
Searing Smite – 1c
Slow – 3c
Sunburst – 8
Tasha’s Hideous Laughter – 1c
Wrathful Smite – 1c

One Saving Throw for duration
Banishing Smite – 5c
Banishment – 4c
Branding Smite – 2c
Charm Person – 1
Color Spray – 1
Enlarge/Reduce – 2c
Enthrall – 2
Hex – 1c
Holy Aura – 8c
Imprisonment – 9
Planar Binding – 5
Ray of Sickness – 1

I doubt this is completely inclusive of all the spells, but it gives a starting point for comparison. Interestingly, almost all the spells in the first category are concentration, whereas less than half of the second category are.

 

[Skyscraper]

[MENTION=72051]Wolf118[/MENTION] Cool! How did you accomplish this search, out of curiosity? I.e. was there an automated tool that allowed you to do this search, or did you scan the spell list in alphabetical order and note the spells one by one? (I was trying to avoid the latter myself...)

 

[Wolf118]

[MENTION=72051]Wolf118[/MENTION] Cool! How did you accomplish this search, out of curiosity? I.e. was there an automated tool that allowed you to do this search, or did you scan the spell list in alphabetical order and note the spells one by one? (I was trying to avoid the latter myself...)

I have scanned in the spells chapter and did a search first for "at the end of each turn" and then for "saving throw".

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

I did a search on the PHB spell list for spells which have a saving throw at the end of each of the target's turns and one saving throw only. The number after the spell is the level, and the 'c' after the number means its a Concentration spell:

Saving throw at the end of each turn
Blinding Smite – 3c
Blindness/Deafness – 3
Compulsion – 4c
Confusion – 4c
Crown of Madness – 2c
Ensnaring Strike – 1c
Entangle – 1c
Evard’s Black Tentacles – 4c
Eyebite – 6c
Hold Monster – 5c
Hold Person – 2c
Power Word Stun – 8
Ray of Enfeeblement – 2c
Searing Smite – 1c
Slow – 3c
Sunburst – 8
Tasha’s Hideous Laughter – 1c
Wrathful Smite – 1c

One Saving Throw for duration
Banishing Smite – 5c
Banishment – 4c
Branding Smite – 2c
Charm Person – 1
Color Spray – 1
Enlarge/Reduce – 2c
Enthrall – 2
Hex – 1c
Holy Aura – 8c
Imprisonment – 9
Planar Binding – 5
Ray of Sickness – 1

I doubt this is completely inclusive of all the spells, but it gives a starting point for comparison. Interestingly, almost all the spells in the first category are concentration, whereas less than half of the second category are.

To add to this:

Hex actually doesn't belong in that list--it has no saving throw.

Wall of Stone offers exactly one Dex save under some circumstances (also costs your reaction), otherwise no save. (Wall of Force never offers any save and is therefore the disabling spell of choice, otherwise Wall of Stone would be awesome.)

Otiluke's Resilient Sphere offers a Dex save, once only.

Hypnotic Pattern of course only a Wisdom save, once only.

Bestow Curse is an odd case--it offers only one Wisdom save, but one of the effects it can impose requires the enemy to Wisdom save every turn or get no action that turn.