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Individuality and Teamwork in D&D

For your PCs how do you value individuality and teamwork

  • Rugged individuality, no compromise

    Votes: 4 3.5%
  • Individualism over teamwork

    Votes: 9 7.8%
  • Both are equally important

    Votes: 54 47.0%
  • Team over the individual

    Votes: 37 32.2%
  • There is no "I" in team

    Votes: 9 7.8%
  • Other (please explain)

    Votes: 2 1.7%

Dausuul

Legend
4e... classes have weaknesses it's difficult or impossible to bypass.

I don't see this as being nearly as much the case in 4E as in previous editions. The 4E wizard is far less squishy than her early-edition equivalent. The 4E fighter has a lot more ability to deal with flying and spellcasting foes. Everybody has some capacity for self-healing, so you can get by without a cleric.

In previous editions, class weaknesses were very hard to bypass, unless you were a mid- to high-level wizard. You were more dependent on other PCs, not less. 4E is the "teamwork edition" not because the mechanics force dependence, but because so many abilities are specially geared toward team play, which encourages players to think about it.
 

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Crazy Jerome

First Post
I'm more interested in that they find even more ways to make team work on a given task more interesting. Basically, I find "Aid Another" lacking as a way to handle "My Diplomacy skill of +7 is practically useless because the elf has +8 and the cleric has +10". And 4E skill challenges (or complex skill checks in 3E) don't really do much to help this.

Solve that, and I think a lot of the teamwork versus individual tensions get seriously relaxed. Not that I think solving that is easy ...
 


Mattachine

Adventurer
I'm more interested in that they find even more ways to make team work on a given task more interesting. Basically, I find "Aid Another" lacking as a way to handle "My Diplomacy skill of +7 is practically useless because the elf has +8 and the cleric has +10". And 4E skill challenges (or complex skill checks in 3E) don't really do much to help this.

Solve that, and I think a lot of the teamwork versus individual tensions get seriously relaxed. Not that I think solving that is easy ...

I think that complex skill checks (and skill challenges, to a lesser degree) do a lot to help build in team work. Also, class features, spells, and such that help/rely on allies also build team work into the rules.

I can't see much else that would do so, other than requiring certain classes for certain tasks, which I loathe.

I played a lot of my 3e games as a player on a persistent world in Neverwinter Nights (online game). Many times, creators of these world wanted to encourage team work, and one of the ways this was done was to create challenges that only one type of character could solve:

* antimagic doors that only rogues could bypass
* special wards only overcome by a good cleric using turn undead
* a ritual that required a spell only on the wiz/sorc list
* monsters immune to most energy damage and spells that needed hand-to-hand fighters

While it is fun sometimes to have one of these challenges in the game, make such challenges a requirement is poor design. I am reminded of several game design articles I've read about avoiding "if you can't get past obstacle X then adventure stops". This kind of enforced teamwork did exactly that, and it didn't encourage teamwork, it just made the game annoying or frustrating. I don't want to go towards that sort of system.
 

Greg K

Legend
I'm more interested in that they find even more ways to make team work on a given task more interesting. Basically, I find "Aid Another" lacking as a way to handle "My Diplomacy skill of +7 is practically useless because the elf has +8 and the cleric has +10". And 4E skill challenges (or complex skill checks in 3E) don't really do much to help this. ...

I'd have an issue with a player that said they +7 was worthless or a DM that makes it worthless by not creating situations where the +7 character will need to use the skill.
 


Crazy Jerome

First Post
I'd have an issue with a player that said they +7 was worthless or a DM that makes it worthless by not creating situations where the +7 character will need to use the skill.

Well, I'm the DM that has to come up with stuff so that it isn't worthless, and I'm tired of the amount of mental effort it takes for such little reward. Oh I can do it easily enough, but to make it seem natural in play is difficult. Albeit, part of this is because I have a larger group, and part of it is because we try to avoid party splits whenever possible. So some of the more obvious solutions don't work as well for us as they would for a more traditional group. But that's part of my point--the rules don't scale well here. If you don't split, the opportunities to need a third guy to roll Diplomacy are not often very organic in play.

I do like the Burning Wheel take on this problem, where its version of "helping" is a bit more valuable (because of the relatively narrow range of results), but mainly because it systematically encourages the helper to get sucked into the fiction surrounding the roll. With the various d20 options, we have to fight to make that aid roll seem to matter all that much in most contexts. Activity on a sailing ship is one notable exception, because you can picture the different activities more readily.
 
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Tallifer

Hero
When we are in the dungeon together or trying to do a great quest or solve a mystery, I truly hope that everyone wants to contribute and has the ability to contribute meaningfully. If someone is useless in combat, he had better be damned good at a lot of other stuff, particularly enhancing or healing his allies. Xander should just be an non-player character, perhaps a henchman or hireling or companion to allow comic relief and someone to carry the baggage or torch.

But this is just my feeling. That does not mean that I have never been guilty of creating and playing a marginally useful character. I do however strongly object when a player routinely sends his character off on tangential expeditions which take up table time and contribute nothing to the mission or story for the rest of the players. That can sometimes just be the fault of weak or dull dungeon mastery.
 

Teamwork is important but forcing it through rigidly defined combat roles seems artificial. Players should cooperate for mutual benefit, not because the rules make it impossible to do otherwise.

That is pretty much my take on it as well.

If the players want an all mage or all fighter party - those parties can do teamwork as well as any other.

Much like the approach of D&Dnext (It's not what is on the character sheet, but in your imagination) I want teamwork in the game, but not because 4 specific combat roles are being fulfilled with preset powers that make the teamwork work. It should be player teamwork, not mechanical teamwork.
 

Miyagi

First Post
Teamwork?

I agree with ExploderWizard, in part. One of the major failings of every edition is its forcing players to play particular roles to make the party successful. Clerics have long been indispensible, or at least, healing has - and I don't think that one of the possible 3E solutions, using a wand of cure light wounds, is really good for the game at all. In earlier editions, wizards were so pathetically weak and fragile that there needed to be a defender of sorts to guard that character.

4E's attempt to fix this, I think, went the wrong way. It defined classes by role, and then gave certain kinds of ability to classes within that role, which seemed to make it so that a variety of roles was necessary. But the designers botched this design by making four roles in an expected party of five characters, which meant that at least one role would be doubled. It is really no different than previous editions that way, except it is even more restricting - by playing the defender, one was obligated to play a particular way for the benefit of the party. Worse, two of these roles didn't really even do anything - I am hard pressed to know what it even means to be a striker (deal more damage? doesn't everyone want to do that) or a controller (forced movement?).

The worst result of this is that some of the best strategies in 4E involve using several characters of the same role - a party of clerics, or paladins, or warlords is fearsome because of the way the rules work. The system incentivizes the character choices it was meant to prevent.

I think a good way to proceed, in the basic version of the game, is to have characters be fairly self-sufficient. Not so that every character is an island unto himself, but characters don't absolutely require other team members - that way smaller than expected parties of adventurers can be accommodated by the rules.

Then, more complicated modules of the game could emphasize teamwork, through rules, but not by restricting certain kinds of actions to roles; instead, there could be benefits to having a variety of team members in an adventuring party. You don't need a cleric, but if you have a cleric and a wizard, there are options that open up that wouldn't have existed for the cleric or wizard alone. You could have things like the 4E warlord's benefits for allies, but you could type each effect, such that it would be a benefit to the party to have a bard and a warlord, say, but not as helpful to have two bards.

Rules ultimately drive player choices, because success and failure, and thus a large part of the fun, are a result of the way the rules work. If D&D Next is an edition that should emphasize teamwork, then it should do so through rules that promote teamwork, rather than punish its lack.

I'm not even certain that the game should be any other way. D&D has always been a team game - pretending that it isn't is part of why people want to play characters that are good for a story - the lone wolf / renaissance man - but not at all fun in a game where people get together to face challenges together. People have always railed at "needing" any given class - needing a cleric is not fun - but if having a cleric was guaranteed to make the other characters better, and that mechanical betterness was a result of high variety, then that is exactly what people would do.

I'm not sure that variety is necessarily the way to go - a team of rogues, or a party of "holy rollers" as my group used to play in 2E, can be a lot of fun too. I also think it is really important, as mentioned in above posts, to make the smaller party workable. But accommodations are more easily made once the design decisions are made for the typical group of adventurers. Making a varied party is as simple as making the varied party mechanically better than the homogeneous one.
 

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