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Individuality and Teamwork in D&D

For your PCs how do you value individuality and teamwork

  • Rugged individuality, no compromise

    Votes: 4 3.5%
  • Individualism over teamwork

    Votes: 9 7.8%
  • Both are equally important

    Votes: 54 47.0%
  • Team over the individual

    Votes: 37 32.2%
  • There is no "I" in team

    Votes: 9 7.8%
  • Other (please explain)

    Votes: 2 1.7%

Vegepygmy

First Post
ExploderWizard said:
Every adventurer should be a capable individual that teams up because its a smart decision. A character that feels like just a spoke in a wheel feels less like a complete person and more like a part of Voltron.

Minigiant said:
D&D is about strong individuals who team up to face even stronger obstacles.

Ahnehnois said:
Teamwork benefits are fine, but the writers of this game should assume as little as possible about the game, and there's definitely no reason to assume that PCs work or fight as a team, or that such a team needs particular archetypes in order to be successful.
I agree with these statements, especially the last. The thing that turned me off the most about 4E was the way it presumed to know how I want to play D&D, and how often it presumed wrong.

(I voted individualism over teamwork.)
 

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underfoot007ct

First Post
The problem with 4th edition is it didn't trust the players enough to work together as a team so it was forced.

Having played many editions for many years, I don't trust Players either.

As for being a team: look at it as if 9 guys show up to play baseball. The coach discovers every body can bat, Great, but has 6 guys playing the bases, & 3 short-stops. No pitcher, catcher, non any outfields. A team it is, but Not a very useful team.
 

Having played many editions for many years, I don't trust Players either.

As for being a team: look at it as if 9 guys show up to play baseball. The coach discovers every body can bat, Great, but has 6 guys playing the bases, & 3 short-stops. No pitcher, catcher, non any outfields. A team it is, but Not a very useful team.

Sure, but D&D isn't baseball. The GM can adjust challenges to fit the party. In a sandbox, the players can pick and choose their battles. I have never encountered a problem because one or two perceived roles weren't being filled.
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
A good enough DM can fix anything. So yeah, if I got a party of narcisists who all decided they wanted to be the 'face,' I suppoe I could craft challenges that wouldn't kill them (too often), and that challenged their combined diplomancy. Now that you've ended the thousand-year blood-fued between two kingdoms, lets see if you can handle a half-dozen kobolds on the road... no? oh, well, the formerly-fueding kingdoms are happy to pay the kobolds' the ransom for you safe return. On to the next wildly imbalanced 'challenge' for your wildly imbalanced party...

Then again, if you don't want to put your DM (and fellow players) through such silliness, having tools - guidelines really - like roles is handy.

Roles would have been nicer if various broad archetypes could be customized to fit any role. The divine source handles all 4 roles easily. But the Arcane source lets you make a dedicated caster fill any roll but defender (you gotta pick up a sword for that, sorry). And, Martial has a blind spot for controller. If every source could handle every role to it's core archetype, then Role would not be a pigeon-holing isssue, just a party-creation tool.
 

A good enough DM can fix anything. So yeah, if I got a party of narcisists who all decided they wanted to be the 'face,' I suppoe I could craft challenges that wouldn't kill them (too often), and that challenged their combined diplomancy. Now that you've ended the thousand-year blood-fued between two kingdoms, lets see if you can handle a half-dozen kobolds on the road... no? oh, well, the formerly-fueding kingdoms are happy to pay the kobolds' the ransom for you safe return. On to the next wildly imbalanced 'challenge' for your wildly imbalanced party...

Then again, if you don't want to put your DM (and fellow players) through such silliness, having tools - guidelines really - like roles is handy.

.

I just dont see why it is silly for parties not to fall into a uniform formula. If I am a gm and the party decides to be all rogues, or a mix of characters like a wizard, ranger, and two fighters, it really isn't that hard to come up with interesting encounters, scenarios and adventures for them, and it doesn't strike me as all that silly. What strikes me as silly is every encounter that occurs in the world being tailor made for perfecly balanced parties. frankly i find it a lot more interesting to design adventures for an unusual party than a vanilla combo of cleric, thief, fighter and mage.
 

Greg K

Legend
Individualism over teamwork.

I DM 99% of the time since the mid 80's. In that time, I have had

1. Parties with no spellcasters
2. In 2e, I had parties where the only caster was a cleric or a wizard.
3. A party in which the only casters were a Paladin and a Green Ronin
Shaman. (before converting from Rolemaster, they were a Paladin and Animist)
4. A party in which the only caster was a wizard specialist.

I have never had a problem with non-traditional parties. Then again, I also start with a setting, but not some main pre-planned storyline or adventure path that the campaign is based upon. I also don't have some pre-conceived notion that the party has to cover all of the bases- as Bedrockgames stated, as DM, I can always design things for a non-standard party- even if having a standard party might have made things easier.
 

Greg K

Legend
Bedrockgames,

I wish that I could XP you, but I have to spread it around first.

I just dont see why it is silly for parties not to fall into a uniform formula. If I am a gm and the party decides to be all rogues, or a mix of characters like a wizard, ranger, and two fighters, it really isn't that hard to come up with interesting encounters, scenarios and adventures for them, and it doesn't strike me as all that silly. What strikes me as silly is every encounter that occurs in the world being tailor made for perfecly balanced parties. frankly i find it a lot more interesting to design adventures for an unusual party than a vanilla combo of cleric, thief, fighter and mage.
 

Mercule

Adventurer
It depends on the kind of game you want to play. I've always had a ton of fun playing incredibly unbalanced small groups or solos. A ranger, a thief, a couple of fighters, even a solo wizard can all be fun if the player(s) are up to the style those choices promote. Those styles are rarely a full frontal assault on a dungeon, though. That doesn't mean you can't do dungeon crawls or are constrained to city adventures -- I ran a solo game for a dwarven fighter with a human fighter hireling that ran for quite some time. Likewise, the solo wizard actually has time to role-play the research, knowledge gathering, and scrying that is required to dominate.

Survival in these sorts of games often requires the player(s) to be really creative and play to their strengths in ways that a team-oriented group would never consider. The really bothersome trend in 3e, Pathfinder, and 4e is to codify and restrict feats, spells, and abilities in such a way that the players are unable to use them in ways not foreseen by the game developers. 4e is the worst, but it didn't come about spontaneously. The changes to polymorph are some nods in 3.5.

I wouldn't advocate knowingly leaving ridiculously broken elements in place. I just think that, at some point, the rules shifted from trying to provide some vague equity to a paranoia that someone may be able to screw another player out of 5 minutes of attention. In the process, the game became hostile to non-standard play.

So, yeah. Individualism trumps team because a group of competent individuals will make a better team. That's a long way from saying any class can do anything another could do.
 

Plane Sailing

Astral Admin - Mwahahaha!
When we are in the dungeon together or trying to do a great quest or solve a mystery, I truly hope that everyone wants to contribute and has the ability to contribute meaningfully. If someone is useless in combat, he had better be damned good at a lot of other stuff, particularly enhancing or healing his allies. Xander should just be an non-player character, perhaps a henchman or hireling or companion to allow comic relief and someone to carry the baggage or torch.

Interestingly, although I've never played it myself I'm given to understand that in the buffy rpg that a Xander character is a full and valuable member of a party who can have as much fun as the slayer or other PC's.

Perhaps something d&d can learn from that?

Cheers
 

exile

First Post
I play in a Pathfinder home game (a couple of them actually) and Pathfinder Society organized play. I also play Living Forgotten Realms, but not in a 4E home game.

I've found that in the Pathfinder home game, I tend to make the character that I want to make. Some few are ruggedly self-sufficient, but most are good at the things their classes dictate they should be good at. Having a relatively large home group, I can then rely upon the other players to make characters that are good at the things they are supposed to be good at. For example, Gemma Sandydowns a halfling ranger (urban ranger) / rogue is a skill monkey and skirmisher. She solves problems and is capable of doing fair damage at range or up close. That said, she often gets in over her head and needs Jorn Halfhand, a physically imposing synthesist summoner, to do the heavy lifting in melee; or the fighter (archer) to bring the big guns when fighting at range; and they all need gavain, the human cleric (street preacher) to talk them out of tight spots and provide much needed healing. Were we playing an adventure of the DM's own creation (rather than an adventure path), I would expect Steven to write the kind of encounters we as a group are going to get into.

In Pathfinder Society, I tend to make my characters more ruggedly self-sufficient. They are, after all, members of the Pathfinder Society, professional adventurers who travel to strange lands, deal with interesting people, take their treasures, then come home and write books about those exploits. Couple that with the fact that in an organized play game, you don't always know who the other players are going to be or which characters they are using that week. So, Anneke Bjornsdottir, human barbarian/fighter (two-handed fighter) can definitely kick the crap out of things with her greatsword, but she's not too shabby with her bow either; and she's got a cold iron morning star, just for thinsg that must be bludgeoned or pierced in melee. She does mostly the survivally, physical things you'd expect out of a barbarian fighter, but she also speaks (and reads) six languages (or thereabouts-- I'm not looking at her character sheet). Sure she's got magic weapons and armor and the requisite rings and cloaks, but she also carries a wand of CLW to share with whoever might be able to use it to keep her alive and a potion of fly for when her bow just isn't doing enough damage to the invisible, flying, lightning-bolt flinging enemy wizard. I thank Painlord (on the Paizo boards) for his long post on ways to make your Pathfinder Society character more ruggedly self-sufficient.

In Living Forgotten Realms, I feel like I more often make the best version of whatever class I am making and then hope for the best (but I don't try at all to make them self-sufficient)... and usually it works. Yeah, I loved it when Denerii Breezechaser, elven rogue, daggermaster, and theif of legend sat down with a defender, leader, controller, and another striker; but she has been at at least one table which we the players dubbed "Four Strikers, No Leaders." For the life of me, I can't remember what the two non-strikers at the table were, but we dealt with the adventure just fine... by dishing out damage quickly.

What I do now often do when prepping to play LFR at a convention is get with my friends and say, "hey guys, these are the scenarios that are running, let's play the Bearers of the Blade, or the Fellow(e)s of a Feather, or Desert Wind." These are all adventuring companies that are somewhat balanced, but not, by any means, completely optimized.

Bearers of the Blade = human strength cleric (mc fighter), dragonborn fighter, tiefling rogue.

Fellow(e)s of a Feather = human monk, minotaur runepriest, dwarven invoker (yeah, they get smacked around a lot).

Desert Wind = human two-weapon (trident and net) fighter, genasi warlord, and shifter monk/sorcerer hybrid.

That said, the two friends who form all of these groups with me get to play a lot more 4E than I do, and they and especially one player's wife have really tried hard to subscribe to Painlord's rules of self-sufficiency (even though they are playing LFR, not Pathfinder Society). What this means is that they end up acquiring a lot more consumables for their characters than I usually do in LFR.

Finally, please don't read this as a criticism of Pathfinder, 4E, Patfinder Society, or LFR. I play and love them all. I'm just pointing out differences that I have experienced over the last several years of play as it relates to this thread.
 

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