Industry Information Influx?

[nerfherder]

I think it's easier for me to stick around message boards, through thick and thin, because I started out as a web/message board junkie and came to game design through that, instead of the other way around. For some people, game design came first, and the internet second, so becoming acclimated to the hostile environment (and make no mistake, any game designer that has ever visited a message board has encountered hostility toward them or their work) can be challenging.

It would be cool to see you on http://www.circvsmaximvs.com if you ever feel like popping in. There's been a little bit of discussion about SWSE, but not a single mention of meters...

 

[Maggan]

Come to think of it, I have another idea as to why industry people aren't posting here as much as we would like them. Apologies if someone already mentioned it, I'm not at my sharpest reading skills today. Ok, here goes ...

They are probably sick and tired of going through the same discussions on levels, spell levels and hit points and 4e again and again and again and again.

A lot of stuff gets repeated quite a lot, and I feel that there's a good chance that a lot of them industry folks, as a lot of us others, just can't be bothered any more with a lot of the subjects raised.

There's only so many times most of us can engage in a "is D&D inherently a munchkin dream" or "escalating hit points are bad" or "vancian magic should get the boot".

All ok discussions by themselves, but there's been quite a lot of them. And that might influence why people are posting here or not.

/M

 

[nerfherder]

There's sort of an inverse quality to unmoderated discussions, where the quality of the conversation is inversely proportional to the size of the community. If can work well in small communities where everyone knows each other, but if it gets too big it just turns into usenet.

I think there's a lot of truth in what you say. I migrated from usenet to a moderated home theater forum (about the same size as ENW) because I was sick of the trolls and threats. The place has quite a few industry people that post there, and I think it's only possible because the moderators are quick to stomp on any rudeness. It's great to be able to talk to the MD of the company that manufactured your amplifier and CD player, as well as the owner of the company that you bought your plasma screen from

 

[Umbran]

Though, if industry persons are too sensitive or are not hearing what they want to hear, that'll drive them away too. I get the impression that some (more than likely not all) WotC people avoid EN World because some people dislike 3.5 or certain aspects of it--regardless of civility.

Actually, this raises a really interesting, and perhaps important, point...

Generally speaking, when we talk amongst ourselves here, we are terribly informal. We have rules of civility, but they are pretty loose. With a little experience, we get a certain expectation of what is okay, and what isn't.

When a WotC employee (or any other industry professional) comes here to speak in that professional capacity, for them that is a professional conversation, not a casual one. It isn't necessarily that they are "too sensitive", so much as they are not in the role of John Q Poster. They're in the role of a professional, representing their company. Darned straight they're going to have different expectations and tolerances. They are going to expect significantly higher standards of comportment and civility. And almost all of the vitriol lately was clearly in violation of those standards.

We, collectively, need to remember that for their benefit, such conversations need to be handled with a slightly more formal tone and approach. If we can do that, maybe they'd be more willing to come here and talk.

I'll betcha that the vast majority of them are quite willing to take negative feedback, so long as it is approached in a mature manner.

 

[Jdvn1]

When a WotC employee (or any other industry professional) comes here to speak in that professional capacity, for them that is a professional conversation, not a casual one. It isn't necessarily that they are "too sensitive", so much as they are not in the role of John Q Poster. They're in the role of a professional, representing their company. Darned straight they're going to have different expectations and tolerances. They are going to expect significantly higher standards of comportment and civility. And almost all of the vitriol lately was clearly in violation of those standards.

I'm sure you've seen industry professionals come here and post in non-official manners. I know I have.

I agree with you that a lot of the vitriol recently was too much (though the loss of the magazines are significant), and most if not all of posts by industry professionals around this time are going to be in an official manner, discussing what's going on. I also agree with you that we are very informal.

But, I think for their online presence to be significant, they need to be able to post in a non-official manner too. That means dealing with the sorts of varieties that gamers come in. Sure, we have to be civil as always, but why can't they be open-minded enough to unofficially discuss the problems with the d20 system? That is, rather that talk about the rules of the game, talk about how something was worded poorly, or that a combination of particular rules has unexpected side effects and listen to other people's ideas on how to handle the situation? I've never seen them discuss the merits of negative (but potentially constructive) feedback.

Sure, they have big names, but they're normal people. Maybe some people will take what they say too far or out of context, "Mike Mearls said the Tumble skill sucks!" or some such silliness, but that's going to happen on the internet anyway.

Do you think when they talk about rules amongst themselves, they're always straight-faced? Why not have gamer-to-gamer conversations with us?

 

[Umbran]

I'm sure you've seen industry professionals come here and post in non-official manners. I know I have.

Yes, but generally not in the middle of a major controversy. And while some have, you'll note the majority don't. We've got a great list of industry professional responses to the change - and with one exception (Mr. Gygax), the links are to someplace other than EN World! Even our own Mousferatu did his thing on Livejournal! I don't think anyone even thought to submit an editorial to Morrus instead...

Do you think when they talk about rules amongst themselves, they're always straight-faced? Why not have gamer-to-gamer conversations with us?

Because, quite simply, the relationship is different. A talk gamer-to-gamer is much different than a talk gamer-to-one-who-speaks-for-the-mind-of-WotC. The very fact that we have to consider them as something separate admits this fact. They have privileged information, and special insights, and (perhaps most importantly) particular responsibilities that your fellow board member doesn't have.

This isn't to say they aren't folks on the inside, but they are folks in a special position, with concerns other than those of your average fellow gamer - and who are far more of a target than your average gamer. If you don't respect their needs, of course they aren't going to talk with you.

 

[Belen]

I am not sure why there is a desire to have the WOTC people visit the boards. I certainly would not want to change ENWorld just to fit the needs of that one subset of people. I used to think it was really awesome when I saw a post by Anydy Collins etc. However, I would much prefer them to take anonymous names and post as normal gamers. I like interacting with Mouseferatu or d20Dwarf as a person rather than as a designer or employee. The same goes for Mike Mearls. I think that people really want designers to post to either 1.) Bitch about bad decisions 2.) Scoops/Insider knowledge

As that directly impacts NDAs and their job, then they probably will not post. Also, it is their job. They may not want to login an talk about it when they get home. I certainly do not want to think about my job when I get home. Finally, they already have game networks. They game with each other and have an internal network of gamers. They do not need to post to have access to a larger network of like minded people. They are surrounded by them already.

I do not think ENWorld needs to change to make it more friendly for designers to show up in an official capacity. I'd prefer for them to post here to chat and discuss them game, but I do not see the benefit of them posting officially unless they need to impart knowledge etc such as Dancey used to do.

And finally, in the early days of 3e when it was Eric Noah's place, it was just different. The base was more energized and everyone wanted to talk about the game, including the designers. 7 years later, things are not so new. The buzz is gone and I am sure they want to go home and relax rather than deal with the same issues and discussions for the nth time.

 

[Mouseferatu]

The main problem is the medium. First of all, only those with strong opinions on a topic are likely to post. Sadly it seems that negative emotions are a stronger motivation than positive ones. Result? The internet is filled with hate. Hate interrupted only by the arguments between those who love X and those who hate X.

Secondly, text alone is a poor communication tool. No visual cues. Misunderstandings abound. Result? Flamewars.

People with polarised opinions, mostly negative, failing to communicate. That's the internet.

I have to respectfully, but strenuously, disagree.

The medium is a facilitator, not a cause.

The fact that many people choose to use their anonymity to be rude, or to spew hate, is still their choice. It was not forced upon them by the medium in which they interact, nor does that medium excuse them.

At the end of the day, when all is said and done, the tone of a post is 100% the responsibility of the individual who typed the words and hit send. No amount of moderation (or lack thereof), no specifics of the medium, can ever excuse the choice to abandon common courtesy and respect.

 

[Doug McCrae]

At the end of the day, when all is said and done, the tone of a post is 100% the responsibility of the individual who typed the words and hit send. No amount of moderation (or lack thereof), no specifics of the medium, can ever excuse the choice to abandon common courtesy and respect.

It doesn't excuse it but it goes some way towards explaining it. I agree with you completely that individual posters are 100% responsible for what they write. There have been some absolutely horrendous posts recently insulting WotC employees and I reported the worst ones I saw.

The state of this discussion board has multiple causes. It couldn't exist without individual posters making individual decisions. And they are rightly called to account for those decisions. But it also couldn't exist without the medium, the internet, being what it is. One state of affairs. Multiple causes. Remove either cause and the state of affairs would cease to be.

 

[Thornir Alekeg]

Though, if industry persons are too sensitive or are not hearing what they want to hear, that'll drive them away too. I get the impression that some (more than likely not all) WotC people avoid EN World because some people dislike 3.5 or certain aspects of it--regardless of civility.

One thing I have learned is that it can be pointless to discuss how great vanilla is to someone who does not like it. Some, perhaps most, of the people who don't like 3.5 or certain aspects of it have already made up their minds. Perhaps WotC people read the postings and take note of the things people complain about (I willing to bet they do), but they don't want to actively discuss it, because they don't want to be forced into having to defend the decisions already made, and don't feel they should have to justify them.

At which point, it could be really cool if WotC people came in, discussed issues, possibly admitted mistakes (since some aspects of the rules are worded very poorly), and gave us their side of things. At the very least, it'd be nice to know the WotC people were open-minded enough to consider possible issues.

Admitting mistakes: how does someone admit a "mistake" unless it was their own personal screw up? Would you appreciate it if a coworker of yours was posting about work you did and talked about how you screwed up? Unless you get the person in charge of the work in question, you probably won't see any apologies.


I'm wondering, if part of the problem is that WotC is not a hivemind, but people seem to think they are. They are individuals, with different opinions but who also need to maintain their professional relationships with each other at work. They don't want to risk being perceived as bashing a colleague's work behind their backs, airing their dirty laundry about how the rest of the team disagrred with them, or possibly having a confrontation about it on a public board if a coworker comes to defend themselves. Better to keep it private.