Infernal pacts - appropriate for player characters?

[Betote]

Are you saying that the only way for a character to gain levels in warlock is to send marked souls? I don't think that's what WotC meant with the boon of souls thing.

I'm quite confident they didn't meant that, but it's what's implied by the fluff.

The warlock concept is that of a baseline evil character. Of couse many people will want to play a warlock, because those dark powers and internal angst are just so cool. And they'll want to be heroes, because everybody wants to have fun at the same table. There's no problem with that. It'll happen, and WotC will surely assure it's a plausible and balanced choice.

That happened before. Some Salvatore guy wrote a bunch of books about a drow which had all the cool powers of the dark elves but who was a good-at-heart guy. Suddenly, drow had a little feat that allowed them to make their good-aligned-scimitars-wielding-drows and have fun with the rest of the party.

I just don't see why the "tiefling warlock" concept is in any way less constrained as the "Dritzz clone" one.

 

[Nifft]

Are you kidding me...the mermaid traded her voice for the ability to have legs. I'm sorry but this is nothing like sending enemies to hell or actually being in servitude to a dark power that places demands upon you in return for growing power.

Is your issue with the Warlock class and the fact that many Warlocks have pacts with infernal beings, or is your beef with that one specific power?

If it's the former, then looking at how pacts with evil entities have been marketed towards various age groups would be educational.

If it's the latter, I think you're jumping the gun -- there's no indication that every Warlock will have that particular power. Not even every infernal warlock. (Just as many Wizards don't ever cast greater planar binding and call up a Pit Fiend.)

Cheers, -- N

 

[Nifft]

I just don't see why the "tiefling warlock" concept is in any way less constrained as the "Dritzz clone" one.

A couple of people have tried to help you with this, including me.

You don't have to like Warlocks, but I hope you can see that what you're saying here isn't accurate. TWF Scimitar Drow is a race and a playstyle, with some strong class implications; Tiefling Warlock is a race and a class, with a wide variety of play styles.

Cheers, -- N

 

[GreatLemur]

Yeah, I'm gonna say it again: We really don't know enough at this point to make moral judgments about the Warlock class. Personally, though, I doubt there's any more reason to look at infernal Warlocks as exemplifying Warlocks in general than there is to look at Clerics of Nerull as exemplifying Clerics in general.

 

[Lonely Tylenol]

It depends on how you define recently. During the cold war era heroes were mostly perfect individuals who battle against evil.

And as we all know, literature was invented after WWII. Except for the people who came back from the wars with demons in their heads and wrote about it. That's not literature. Four-colour comic books intended for children: that's culturally relevant literature.

 

[Lonely Tylenol]

And what class would tieflings naturally gravitate to? A class that acquired scary powers by negotiating , pacts with shadowy, infenral, or feral patrons?
(my emphasis)

Not getting much suggestion of this being an appropriate class for the good guys here. Absolutely not getting the impression that they'll be good team players.

So are you trying to say that scary = evil? No wonder Intimidate isn't one of the paladin's class skills. It all makes so much sense now!

 

[Lonely Tylenol]

This fight is kind of funny. Just last weekend, I ran a game with a paladin, a warlock, and a cleric . . . all from the same church.

And it worked great. As it turns out, it's entirely possible to play an infernally tainted character without being evil. All it takes is a willingness to think about the possibilities.

In my game, the church (it's a monothestic world) feels a duty to help rehabilitate those who find themselves empowered by infernal forces. In many cases, this happens to the very young either because of the acts of their parents, or because the child finds himself or herself in extremis and an alliance with a demon is the only way out. The church knows that the young are particularly vulnerable, and so brings them into monasteries to raise them and educate them about their condition.

The warlock out lawful-gooded the paladin.

--G

Oh yeah! Hey guys, we forgot! There is already a warlock class, and it already gets its powers from an infernal source! Whoops, how did we miss that one, eh?

 

[Nifft]

So are you trying to say that scary = evil? No wonder Intimidate isn't one of the paladin's class skills. It all makes so much sense now!

As an aside, that always made no sense to me.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Lonely Tylenol]

Good one, mechanic-wise. Stretched on alignment.

This one is wasting his main weapon. A warlock who doesn't use its eldritch blast is like a pacifist fighter or an atheistic cleric: good for oddballers who want to play the handicapped character, silly characters mechanic-wise.

I don't see that much difference between what this warlock does and what the first one does. Slightly different ways to do the same thing, as a fighter who uses a sword or a pike, or as paladins of different deities.

"You can't make me two different warlocks. Oh, you made 3. Well, the other ones are so totally lame nobody would play them. And they're all the same, too. So it proves I'm right."

... :\

 

[Lonely Tylenol]

Just asking for two is way too easy for this kind of class.

Guy 1: Entered the pact involuntarily, or while he was heavily disturbed. Tried to get out of it ever since, but couldn't. Rational enough to see that he is got to use his abilities to survive, adventures to get some way out of the whole thing, just wants to leave in peace.

Guy 2: Driven by some semi-noble, outright noble goal, revenge, "greater good" or what have you. Freely uses his abilitie to accomplish that goal, doesn't care what will happen to him afterwards, but tries to keep others out of it.

Guy 3: Arrogant, believes he can benefit from the pact without paying. Is motivated by fame, glory and demonstrating his own superiority over the beings he made the pact with.

Guy 4: Giving in entirely, letting himself get used. Will from time to time, or when asked to do really depraved things, break down and realize what he is actually doing.

My turn:

Guy 5: Originally an arcanist. Summoned a demon and siphoned off its power, destroying it. He believed that he could use the "raw magical energy" to fuel his own abilities. However, that energy isn't just raw magic, but pure concentrated evil, and now he can't rid himself of it, as though he's a walking evil antenna, constantly picking it up. He has to blow off the energy daily or else it overwhelms him, and he's discovered that it can only power certain abilities--those that demons might be capable of using.