Inherent PC Superiority?

Do you have a page reference for that? If not, please keep the silly edition-warring out.

First off, what am I comparing 4th edition to in order to start an edition war? Also, if anyone points out something about a particular RPG shouting edition war is not going to change anything and is just a cop out. Pointing out what's there is not an edition war and if you don't like it then post why you don't like it.

4th edition D&D does cater to the player's a bit more than other editions. Someone has already mentioned death but there is also, player wish lists, in the DMG under one of the pro's tips James Wyatt talks about just being the person working the controls and not being a referee when in fact being a referee is exactly what the DM is. Also there is mention about trying not to say "no" to your player's.

The facts are there.
 

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First, there was 3d6. But that led to a large variance as someone could end up with below average stats while someone else in the same group ended up with high stats.

Then we introduced 4d6, drop lowest...

Yeah, I remember that changover. When I first started playing AD&D at a local game club you had to roll characters in front of the group, 3d6 in order.

An awful lot of characters looked like: Str: 9 Int: 7 Wis: 8 Dex: 12 Con: 14 Cha: 11

But as we bought modules and looked at the pre-gens we saw stats like this: Str: 16 Int: 11 Wis: 12 Dex: 15 Con: 14 Cha: 10 (that's actually from a scenario).

That's when I remember some major stat inflation starting to happen.
 


Your post described severe railroading, which is system-independent.

But this is not the thread for such discussion.

Only because you don't agree with it and can't find a logical excuse to prove me wrong.

I understand how you work now.

P.S Everything I have said goes exactly with the title of the thread.
 

Your post described severe railroading, which is system-independent.

But this is not the thread for such discussion.

Thanks, Fifth, I honestly appreciate your restraint. I agree that railroading is system independent. And I also agree there are other threads for a debate.

Keep playing what you like, no matter what others say. What you like to play is always the right choice :)
 

.. and to be completely fair; it's entirely possible to kill at least one PC per gaming session just by scaling up the encounters appropriately such that the fights are fair and rely on tactical use of the game board.
Like all editions of D&D, you can bash, modify or tweak it to produce a desired focus. It's what house rules are all about. The ability to play the game "your" way has always been the best thing about the game.

.. The argument that 4e has an unfair player bias is rather weak.
I can only go on my experience and this is why I highlighted that it was early rules as written with the H1 to H3 and P1 modules. For this mode of play, I think it is most certainly true. I am a current player/DM of 4e and so I can see how the baseline has changed with MM3 and possibly essentials (our group has not touched essentials yet although as a DDI subscriber, I have followed along to an extent). For how it started out though I still maintain that unmodified that player bias is there if you follow the rules and modules.

Best Regards
Herremann the Wise
 

I can only go on my experience and this is why I highlighted that it was early rules as written with the H1 to H3 and P1 modules. For this mode of play, I think it is most certainly true. I am a current player/DM of 4e and so I can see how the baseline has changed with MM3 and possibly essentials (our group has not touched essentials yet although as a DDI subscriber, I have followed along to an extent). For how it started out though I still maintain that unmodified that player bias is there if you follow the rules and modules.

Best Regards
Herremann the Wise

My bad, you're absolutely right about that. My initial reply had more to do with the original statement of bias than the lens of the initial module runs and I take responsibility for not reading your post in the correct context.
 

Now, are we talking talent, potential, or skill? A level one character isn't too much more skilled conceptually from a normal person-most people could do level one in a number of classes. However, depending on the system your character's abilities could limit the character's growth; some people may not care for anything below low level, but that's really just abdicating from the discussion. Most people can do something well, but those people have talent for the task; it could be over in the form of natural aptitude, or subtle in the form of bring able to grow into the ability; however that talent has to be there, and all too often talent in DnD is abilities. A 13-int character won't make for a very good wizard, and making the claim "it makes me play more cautiously" won't make up for an underpowered character, which is fine if you don't expect them to have to really succeed at any particularly difficult task. It seems like the view that most people have is that your average human is literally all around average-they're all over the place in terms of ability. In all honesty, the average hum seems more capable than some of the characters some of the more low score generating random methods here seem to suggest.
 

The argument that 4e has an unfair player bias is rather weak.
4e is clearly designed so that, in combat, the PCs will start out threatened (monsters of a given level have more hit points, and more powerful basic attacks) but will rebound by drawing on their superior depth of resources (healing surges, action points, non-basic attacks etc). In that sense, then, there is a "player bias". I don't know what it would even mean, though, to describe that bias as "unfair". Unfair to whom? The GM? The imaginary NPCs? The game is what it is. I like it, because the "player bias" means that combats play out in a fashion that is both tactically and thematically engaging. (The dynamics are, for example, the very opposite of buff-teleport-ambush play.) Others don't, whether because it offends their simulationist sensibilities or because they want combat for their PCs to be a crapshoot.

When we begin a campaign it is essentially anything could happen. You are not guaranteed to make it level 30, 20 or whatever. I have noticed that 4th edition is more about the player's winning than anything else and we don't really care for that.
Someone has already mentioned death but there is also, player wish lists
I think that the 4e rules and guidelines, as written, do tend to assume that the PCs will progress through the levels. What I think we should infer from this is that levelling is not, in itself, the main reward from 4e play. The reward is to be found somewhere else. It can be found in clever tactical play - in which case, level growth is a way of changing the tactical mix and gradually increasing its complexity - or (in my preferred approach to the game) in the thematic content of the unfolding story, to which the level growth provides a backdrop.

Likewise with respect to wishlists. At least pre-Essentials, 4e seems to approach magic items as just another aspect of PC build. So, again, finding the items on one's wishlist isn't a reward. It's just part of the ongoing game of building one's PC. The real reward has to come from playing that PC.

Because of these features of 4e - that steady level growth is the backdrop for the game, and that magic items are an assumed part of PC building - I think it is inevitable that PCs will become superior to typical world inhabitants fairly quickly. Of course, the same thing is true of AD&D as well - levels will be gained by the PCs, fairly quickly at least until about level 5, and magic items found.

4th edition D&D does cater to the player's a bit more than other editions.
I'm not sure what to make of this. Presumably all RPGs cater to their players, in the sense of being fun games to play - otherwise why would people play them?

Here is a quote from Man, Myth and Magic Book III (an RPG published in 1982):

Making the transition from Lore Master [= GM] to great Lore Master involves getting your head together about a Lore Master's function in Man, Myth and Magic.

His function, his basic prime function, is that of a good host: to make sure that his guests/players have the best time possible.

That's it and no more: the very best time possible. Not to win, not to compete, not to slaughter, but to make sure your playrs have the very best time possible.

The rest of this book is about how you can make sure your players have the very best time possible.

(And know what? That means you're going to have the best time possible yourself.)​

As to more detailed advice, in my view the book is a bit mixed. It has some useful suggestions on how to reintegrate a player who's PC dies back into the game in fairly quick order. But it also assumes that one thing that will help your players have the best time possible is really detailed descriptions - in my experience, at least, this is not always true.

But the basic sentiments that I've quoted strike me as pretty uncontroversial, and wouldn't strike me as being at all out of place if I came across them in a 4e book.
 
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Interesting question - do I like the PCs to be superior?

And the answers are yes. And no. And sometimes.

To explain:

Yes. At start-out I've always used 5d6-take-3 for roll-up; I've no objection at all to PCs having on average somewhat higher stats than the typical commoners of their race; and to use those stats as a reason to go out adventuring where the less brave will not.

No. No matter how powerful your PCs get, there's always going to be a bigger fish. Sometimes lots of bigger fish. And you're not the only adventurers in the world; there's others whose stories and actions may never touch yours at all, but they're still out there and every now and then you might meet 'em - or fight with 'em, whatever.

Sometimes. I like to see the PCs increase in power and influence as their careers progress - if that's what they want. In one of my campaigns my PCs had castles and strongholds scattered across the eastern continent once they got to decent level. In another they built one great big communal castle at mid-level and all the various PC parties based there for the rest of the game (I think by the end they'd poured something like a quarter-million g.p. into the place all told) - it almost got to the point where the King ruled only because the PCs let him, yet the PCs still took a knee when he visited. :)

Lan-"I did 6 tours of duty out of that castle - it was quite something"-efan
 

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