D&D General Inherently Evil?

[Voadam]

Shouldn't positive energy be 'good' then instead of cancer-sploding people and making armoires that beat you like you stole something?

And speaking of consistency, shouldn't all the other Neutral elements also have aligned effects like fire being Chaos and Earth being Lawful? Because again, by canon Negative and Positive energies are entirely neutral elements that are just as much building blocks as water and air.

There is a bunch of positive energy being good-adjacent as a flip side to negative being evil-adjacent. Good clerics can only channel positive energy while evil ones only channel negative. In older editions being able to cast cure light wounds was tied to being good or lawful as opposed to the reversed cause light wounds being for evil or chaos depending on the number of points of alignment in the system.

 

[Umbran]

Mod Note:

It looks like folks are getting snippy, personal, and testy.

Unless you're really new here, you should know that alignment threads generally devolve into head-butting between a few dug-in die hard devotees to one particular view or another.

Don't be that person. Recuse yourself before your annoyance leads to saying something you'll regret.

 

[Maxperson]

I am not sure where you are getting your quote from, but "or the like" seems to cover dead organic material similar to wood (dead trees) or leather (dead skin/hides).

I am pretty sure it was defined in 3e that creatures were only creatures until killed then they were considered objects for game effect purposes.

The closest I can find to a direct reference though is the glossary definition of creatures on the 3.5 PH page 306: "creature: A living or otherwise active being, not an object. The terms “creature” and “character” are sometimes used interchangeably."

Animate object for instance does not seem to have any prohibition on using inanimate corpse. It says "You imbue inanimate objects with mobility and a semblance of life. Each such animated object then immediately attacks whomever or whatever you initially designate.
An animated object can be of any nonmagical material. You may animate one Small or smaller object or an equivalent number of larger objects per caster level. A Medium object counts as two Small or smaller objects, a Large object as four, a Huge object as eight, a Gargantuan object as sixteen, and a Colossal object as thirty-two. You can change the designated target or targets as a move action, as if directing an active spell.
This spell cannot animate objects carried or worn by a creature.
Animate objects can be made permanent with a permanency spell."

While animated objects are described simply as "Animated objects come in all sizes, shapes, and colors. They owe their existence as creatures to spells such as animate objects or similar supernatural abilities."

There's no point to animate dead if all you need to do is animate objects. Animate Dead also targets a corpse, not an object, as do other necromantic spells. Control Undead targets a corpse, not an object. Additionally, Transport Via Plants says, "The destruction of an occupied plant slays you and any creatures you have brought along, and ejects the bodies and all carried objects from the tree." Lastly, Animate Object says to use the stats in the MM. The MM shows objects, not prior corpses, and talks about hardness based on the substance it was prior to animation. It's very clear that RAI is not to allow Animate Objects to work on a corpse, and nothing in RAW says it works on a corpse.

 

[Maxperson]

Shouldn't positive energy be 'good' then instead of cancer-sploding people and making armoires that beat you like you stole something?

Positive energy is good. See spells with the good descriptor. Also, positive energy heals and energizes the PCs................................then overloads them and they explode if they stay in it too long. Good =/= safe/

And speaking of consistency, shouldn't all the other Neutral elements also have aligned effects like fire being Chaos and Earth being Lawful? Because again, by canon Negative and Positive energies are entirely neutral elements that are just as much building blocks as water and air.

No. Fire is not chaos. It's fire. Earth is not lawful. It's earth.

 

[Bohandas]

I guess I don't really see the point of calling out BoVD, it was published nearly 20 years ago and was never a core book.

It was more than just non-core, it came with an explicit disclaimer that it shouldn't be applied at all tables, which to me implies that in terms of general discussions of game rules the core rules should supercede it where the two contradict

 

[Oofta]

It was more than just non-core, it came with an explicit disclaimer that it shouldn't be applied at all tables, which to me implies that in terms of general discussions of game rules the core rules should supercede it where the two contradict

Like all supplements it was something we looked to for inspiration and ideas, not gospel. Although I guess that's how we looked at a lot of the rules, and still do.

 

[Voadam]

There's no point to animate dead if all you need to do is animate objects.

In your view if bodies are objects there would be no point to animate dead, an [Evil] 3rd level cleric, 4th level wizard spell that makes permanent common undead minion monsters out of corpses when there is animate objects which is a 6th level cleric spell that lasts for only 1 round per level but which can make constructs out of corpses or any other object?

I disagree.

Animate Dead also targets a corpse, not an object, as do other necromantic spells. Control Undead targets a corpse, not an object.

And magic weapon targets a weapon, not an object. The question is whether a corpse counts as an object, not whether the spell's target says "object".

Additionally, Transport Via Plants says, "The destruction of an occupied plant slays you and any creatures you have brought along, and ejects the bodies and all carried objects from the tree."

That seems consistent with bodies being objects. We know from the glossary that creatures are only living or animate things, so once you die you do not count as a creature. Inside the plant when you are alive there are only carried objects. All that is left after dying in the plant are two types of objects, the bodies and the carried objects which are expelled.

Lastly, Animate Object says to use the stats in the MM.

Yes, casting animate object on a non-undead skeleton creates a construct with stats using the animated object entry similar to how casting animate object on the wood from a treant creates a construct or casting it on the stretched out hide of an animal at a tannery would create a construct.

The MM shows objects, not prior corpses, and talks about hardness based on the substance it was prior to animation.

One of the examples is a vine. I think it would work on a dead plant.

"A flexible animated object such as a rope, vine, or rug deals damage equal to its slam damage value plus"

It's very clear that RAI is not to allow Animate Objects to work on a corpse, and nothing in RAW says it works on a corpse.

Creatures are defined as living or animate things, so corpses do not seem to be creatures for game effect purposes.

Under spell targets it seems that things are either creatures or objects:

"Target or Targets
Some spells have a target or targets. You cast these spells on creatures or objects, as defined by the spell itself."

Unanimated corpses are not immune to spell effects so they generally need to be either creatures or objects.

 

[Vaalingrade]

Faous D&D monster, Cthulu.

Positive energy is good.

Except in the game rules. The Positive and Negative energy planes are both unaligned just like the other elemental planes.

See spells with the good descriptor.

1) Descriptors are tags, not a moral statement.
2) Cure Wounds spells, the most basic positive energy spells aren't [Good].

Also, positive energy heals and energizes the PCs................................then overloads them and they explode if they stay in it too long. Good =/= safe/

I mean, point. Good and D&D is often incredibly monstrous and completely disconnected from actually being a good person.

Probably because it was originally conceived as a Cosmic faction instead of a behavioral lever.

No. Fire is not chaos. It's fire. Earth is not lawful. It's earth.

Negative is not evil, it's negative. Positive is not good, it's positive. By RAW.

 

[Voadam]

Faous D&D monster, Cthulu.

Chaotic Evil 400 hp Greater God Cthulhu was right there in the 1e Deities and Demigods.

Until he was not.

 

[Micah Sweet]

And, if I may add, especially over the internet, I think that the reality is that the 1% debating this have little impact on so much of the games actually being played out there in the proper spirit of friendship and understanding.

True, but that 1%, by virtue of making a lot of noise, do have a disproportionately large impact on the people who make the game, which leads to changing the game, which affects everybody.