Initiate of the Old Faith

[the Jester]

So essentially the complaint is that you can't get at will flying with a feat at 1st level?

Take a moment to compare that to what other feats available at 1st level give you.

 

[DracoSuave]

RP is not about taking feats, guys. RP is RP. Taking feats is purely mechanical, and 4e has reduced the RP of being a druid into a purely mechanical abstraction.

Bullocks, bullocks, and bullocks.

Roleplay is about pretending to be something you are not. Mechanics exist to support that roleplay, both by being what you are able to do, and also by defining your limitations.

For well over a decade many -other- roleplaying games have been able to go 'You know what, just describe what happens in your own way, you don't need a mechanic that says 'you turn into a bear' because your bear might be different than mine. Just roleplay being an animal that fits your capabilities.' Other roleplaying games have managed to pull this off for years.

The way Wild Shape does it is to give the players creative freedom, non-constraining the fluff, while letting the player decide the mechanics for themselves that describe what they want to do.

But to sit there and have the temerity to say that feats (and powers and paragon path are included in what Wild Shape can do, buddy, so let's lump them in there too) are strictly mechanical and have nothing to do with roleplay, then I will put forth that you, sir, do not KNOW what roleplay is, and need to start playing games that don't involve kicking down doors and taking kobold's treasure and character optimization and phat lewts.

 

[Pssthpok]

Well, essentially the complaint is that you can take the shape of a bird but can't fly for mechanical reasons, not RP reasons.

The RP side of things is essentially polluted by mechanical inhibitors put in place for the ease of governing how PCs operate in-game.

It's like giving a kid a bike but taking the chain off the wheel so he can't go faster than a pedestrian parent. If the parent wants to keep up with a kid, they need to either a) don't give the kid a bike, or b) get a bike of their own.

It's a dick move and there are better ways to handle it.

In 3e, the designers didn't want druids becoming elementals until higher level, so the wildshape ability took that idea into account and worked it into both the mechanical and RP side of things.

4e just says "no flight", gives you the ability to become a bird and then like... shouts at you "NO FLIGHT, GAWDAMMIT, JEEZ!"

And that's just shoddy design.

 

[Pssthpok]

Bullocks, bullocks, and bullocks.

First off, it's "bollocks".

Secondly, I've been playing D&D since 2e. 4e is the most-hamstrung of all the editions while at the same time being the most balanced, ostensibly.

Bottom line though, "sir", is that you have drunk the Kool-Aid and can't see the forest for the trees.

A well-designed wildshape ability would be one that either severely limits the forms one can take or accepts that some forms can fly, swim or whatever. What it would not do, however, is give a druid the ability to become a bird, but overbear that idea with a meta-restriction on flight (because it makes the DM's job "harder").

 

[Pssthpok]

If you took the form of a bird, could you fly?

no.


You don't know how.

I can't understand this logic.

If I can "become a bird"... my knowledge of bipedal mobility takes a backseat to the fact that I can BECOME A BIRD!

Flight is wrapped up in that the same way swimming is wrapped up in being an otter. If you don't agree with that, I don't really know if I can keep talking to you.

If you can transform into a ing bird, you should damn well be able to fly.

The ONLY reason to do otherwise is completely metagame and has nothing to do with good mechanics or fun at the table. It's just a watered down way of handling something that bad DMs don't know how to plan around.

 

[Dice4Hire]

How ab out looking at Wild Shape from the other end. See what you are allowed and only change into forms that match that?

Too simple?




Or is too much desire to break the rules and balance between classes blinding you?

 

[Pssthpok]

I just want it to make sense.
I'm not "blinded", though I appreciate your attempt to overload the situation with emotional words.
Birds fly. Fish breathe water. Any reason to inhibit those facts isn't about making the game fun or having it make sense, it's about making the game easy for all the Junior DMs in this thread.

 

[mneme]

The latter, methinks.

In 3e, the rules were a crazy straightjacket that prevented you from playing pretty much anything. But within those rules, you could go nuts -- you could pretty easily break the game and any semblance of game balance.

In 4e, it's nice and simple -- there are rules, and they constrain what you can do. Always, without GME -- you don't get to cheese in broken powers or otherwise "con the GM" for most things, as the GM can just look at the rules unless they're feeling indulgent.

However, within the confines of the rules, you can do anything you want. Your familiar can look like anything you want it to look like (subject to the GM saying "that makes no sense in my campaign) -- but it has to be a tiny creature, has to have the powers for the "base form", and has to follow the limits for familars. Your wildshape can look like anything you want (subject to ...) -- but it has to be of your size, and can't get movement modes, etc, that you don't have. You want a power that lets you become a flying bird? Buy it.

Complaining that you can't con the GM like you used to just doesn't cut it.

 

[Kingreaper]

I can't understand this logic.

If I can "become a bird"... my knowledge of bipedal mobility takes a backseat to the fact that I can BECOME A BIRD!

Flight is wrapped up in that the same way swimming is wrapped up in being an otter. If you don't agree with that, I don't really know if I can keep talking to you.

Flight is to birds what swimming is to otters, and what walking is to humans: SOMETHING YOU LEARN AT A VERY EARLY AGE.


If you're going to argue that becoming a bird gives you all a birds skills, instead of your own: guess what, birds can't wildshape. You're stuck.


Not to mention: Human sized birds CAN'T FLY (well, not ones in the real world anyway). So, you won't be able to fly ANYWAY until you can get yourself a bit smaller.

 

[DracoSuave]

Secondly, I've been playing D&D since 2e. 4e is the most-hamstrung of all the editions while at the same time being the most balanced, ostensibly.

Bottom line though, "sir", is that you have drunk the Kool-Aid and can't see the forest for the trees.

Bottom line is, relating your D&D experience as a retort to 'You need to need to play games that aren't D&D' is a failure to understand the rebuttal. So I'll be more plain.

D&D is not the only RPG out there. Get more in touch with RPG design that's popped up in the two decades. You'd be surprised at how many of them follow the same attitude towards how stuff works.

A well-designed wildshape ability would be one that either severely limits the forms one can take or accepts that some forms can fly, swim or whatever. What it would not do, however, is give a druid the ability to become a bird, but overbear that idea with a meta-restriction on flight (because it makes the DM's job "harder").

I'd hate to see you play Mage: The Ascension, Over the Edge, or any other such game.

How's this.

If you don't have the ability to fly through a power, then chances are you wouldn't roleplay turning into a bird, now would you? Cause if you did, that could be bad roleplay if you then turn around with 'But I can't fly, baawwwww!'

Cause as a DM, I'd say 'Then why, as a player, did you choose to turn into a bird you know can't act as a bird? Why did YOU make that choice? Why did YOU think that choice was available? Are you attempting to roleplay playing a druid who can turn into a bird but doesn't know how to fly? That's good rp. Are you attempting to make a point that you can turn into a bird without being able to fly as a game rule complaint? That's bad rp.'

Wild Shape isn't there to hold your hand and go 'There, my child, you can do these exact forms and that's it' because, and I know this might seem strange, but that's not ACTUALLY POSSIBLE.

What DOES constrain your forms is your powers. (even more than feats, to a considerable degree.)

So, let's say you picked mainly Beast Form powers, including Pounce, and took some stealth-based abilities. Congrats. Your Beast Forms tend towards sleek, darkfurred creatures, like a jaguar. You can do others too, depending on the story. But mainly, that's your primary form.

But, if you're primarily human-form powers, and your only Beast Form power is Savage Rend to get you out of danger but you have high Con... then you might transform into a bear, swipe at them, then change to a mouse to escape them before turning back to human form.

This is the issue at hand: Roleplay is not 'I read my power and did exactly what it said I could do!'

Roleplay is 'I expressed my creativity and pretended to be a role.' You're expecting the constraints of Wild Shape's shapes to be listed in its power in a game where you can have millions of permutations of the same class and therefore beast forms, which would require a description longer than the amount of paper available for the entire game system.

Instead, it simply says 'Do as you will' and the constraints are written into what powers you have. You're expecting Wild Shape to tell you what you can't do, when it's THE ENTIRE REST OF YOUR CHARACTER SHEET that does that.