Initiate of the Old Faith

[mneme]

Draco: Yes, that. Also, mnn, OTE.

Other games to look at in terms of "dude, you need to explore the spectrum of what a roleplaying game can do rather than what D&D's done in the past" are Prime Time Adventures (arguably a story game rather than a roleplaying game, but big whup), FATE, and, I don't know, maybe Mouse Guard, maybe Everway.

 

[Dan'L]

Okay, so I decided to look it up. And guess what?

The Wild Shape power does not let you turn into a bird, flightless or otherwise.

(It does not let you turn into a wolf, bear, cat, etc. for that matter.)

What it does let you do is to alter your shape so that you resemble a bird, wolf, bear, cat, etc.:

You choose a specific form whenever you use wild shape to change into beast form. The beast form is your size, resembles a natural beast or a fey beast, and normally doesn't change your game statistics or movement modes.

And just as resembling someone else (like a sibling or a parent) doesn't make you that person, neither does Wild Shape's allowing you to resemble an ostrich make you an ostrich.

So, when your elf druid shifts form to look like Tweety Bird, he's really still an elf. He's just an elf in disguise (although perhaps an externally very realistic looking disguise.) And elves, in and of themselves, can't fly. They need other powers, etc. to help them with that. Kind of like how just putting on a Yankee's uniform doesn't suddenly confer upon the wearer the ability to play baseball.

-Dan'L

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

I think it's infinitely lameballs to say you can take the shape of a bird but can't fly.
Sure, 4e has done a lot to address power bloat issues from PC class combos, but this sort of thing is a smack in the face.

RP is not about taking feats, guys. RP is RP. Taking feats is purely mechanical, and 4e has reduced the RP of being a druid into a purely mechanical abstraction.

It speaks to nothing other than the designer's inability to imagine a PC class that allows animal forms without breaking the game.

How's about letting druids become animals of certain types only at certain levels, but with the full compliment of that form's natural abilities? So, bird shapes are off-limits until 16th level, but they can fly.

Reductio Ad Absurdum. I am a fighter, I can swing a sword, why can't I decapitate that 20th level monster in a single blow! Its the same argument. Obviously I'm making it absurd, but hopefully the point is made. RP all you want, but the rules are that you can mechanically do certain things. So GOOD RP would be RPing within those limitations. Most of the point of the game is giving you a framework for what you can do so that you have a way to know what things you are able to describe your character doing.

So, you can turn into a bird (of medium size) at level 1, but you may not want to do that if you want to role play flying around in bird shape. When you hit 6th level you have the experience to turn into a bird shape that CAN fly.

How would the game be better if Wildshape could somehow incorporate some language (I can't imagine what) that limited you to only creatures that you could do all the 'appropriate' kinds of things that animal can do? All it does is remove options from the player that hurt nothing to have. What does being able to turn into a bird form hurt? Maybe there is a player that will find a creative use for that. A fun use. Putting RP/fluff limits on players really has no benefit to the game. Its a really nice thing to be honest that 4e finally figured that out.

 

[Incenjucar]

The one and only problem with this feat (and Wildshape in general) is that it does not give you access to a super generic basic attack.

Otherwise it is entirely awesome and useful.

If you pick the right power, once per encounter you get a free useful ability. It's like stealing the Half-Elf's schtick. Using this feat with a Wisdom-based character gives you the ability to SLIDE an enemy away a square, so you can run without drawing an OA.

You also get a minor shift once every other round, which is freaking awesome. You can make this a free action later on. You gain access to beast powers, which are great for escaping and defense, which this feat is amazing for.

 

[john112364]

Okay, so I decided to look it up. And guess what?

The Wild Shape power does not let you turn into a bird, flightless or otherwise.

(It does not let you turn into a wolf, bear, cat, etc. for that matter.)

What it does let you do is to alter your shape so that you resemble a bird, wolf, bear, cat, etc.:



And just as resembling someone else (like a sibling or a parent) doesn't make you that person, neither does Wild Shape's allowing you to resemble an ostrich make you an ostrich.

So, when your elf druid shifts form to look like Tweety Bird, he's really still an elf. He's just an elf in disguise (although perhaps an externally very realistic looking disguise.) And elves, in and of themselves, can't fly. They need other powers, etc. to help them with that. Kind of like how just putting on a Yankee's uniform doesn't suddenly confer upon the wearer the ability to play baseball.

-Dan'L

You know that's the best explanation I've heard about wildshape. (And it's actually spelled out in the rules even if I didn't see it.)Ii think I will take back my lame comment. On seeing this discussed, I'm convinced it not such a bad feat after all.

 

[brehobit]

Short and long of it:

4e is all about balance. The wild shape of the druid is the way it is because of that. Face it, I can become a bird in 4e but continue to move _exactly_ my human speed. AC stays the same too right?

I'd have preferred the game give the druid some non-combat powers in wild shape but took it out in combat ability. But 4e doesn't do that.

I do like the "you don't know how to do that" (like flying) argument, and that you do once you take the right power. But aren't those powers darn limited (1/day or 1/encounter)?

I like 4e, I really do. but the balance>flavor that it endorses is a huge problem in some areas. The attempt to silo abilities would have worked if the darn utilities weren't by-and-large still combat abilities. The notion that the game need not represent non-combat abilities is annoying. I'm one of those that laments the lack of a craft skill.

On the whole 4e is a great board game, and that can make for a great platform for a great RPG. But 4e isn't, in-and-of-itself, a great RPG. 3e is closer. Champions, GURPs, Shadowrun and many others (even 2e) are better at that aspect. But those game sacrifice balance or other things (drop 3 grenades in a small area in Shadowrun and no one will die, drop 4 and they might) for what they pay back in terms of flavor-in-rules.

But please don't claim that 4e's limitations are features, not bugs. The druid wild shape is one of the best examples IMO. The wacked economy of magic items, the fairly odd skill challenges, the fact that a fighter may end up being stronger than an elephant, that using their encounter power a fighter can do massive damage to swarms (burst attack) once per fight but otherwise do little, etc. are bugs. So is the fact that a 20th level wizard with no athletic training (STR 12) will be a better athlete that a 1st level fighter with an 18 STR training in athletics...

That the party has to work together, each character has an important role to play in combat, and that each character has interesting (if overly similar IMO) mechanics are great features and likely worth the fairly minor sacrifices above, especially if your group really enjoys tactical challenges with their role playing (and mine does!).

 

[Incenjucar]

You're looking at things backwards. The balance is the feature that allows people to do things from day 1.

Flight is extremely powerful. Wild Shape with unlimited possibilities gets you flight. You have two options, unless you want to disrupt the heck out of the game: 1) Delay Unlimited Possibility Wild Shape until it is on par with what everyone else can do or 2) Cut Unlimited Possibility Wild Shape into parts and make those parts available as early as they can be without screwing the game up. Remember, if balance is lost - unless your group enjoys vast gulfs in balance - fun will also be lost.

Fighters being stronger than elephants? This is a fantasy hero game.

A level 30 Wizard being able to out-Athletics a level 1 Fighter? They very specifically did this on purpose so that your level 30 wizard isn't being beaten up by peasants because it would be ludicrous for them to get through 30 levels of adventuring and remain so weak.

--

Wild Shape is fine even if you can't turn into Bahamut at level 1.

 

[DracoSuave]

So is the fact that a 20th level wizard with no athletic training (STR 12) will be a better athlete that a 1st level fighter with an 18 STR training in athletics...

Broken is the idea that after 20 levels of adventuring, getting to the point where one is dealing with conflicts involving entire nations, and fighting in very physical combat against would have no athletic training.

Be realistic here. If you're saving the country by killing , you're bound to pick up more than if you ran a couple miles in fighter school.

 

[brehobit]

Broken is the idea that after 20 levels of adventuring, getting to the point where one is dealing with conflicts involving entire nations, and fighting in very physical combat against would have no athletic training.

Be realistic here. If you're saving the country by killing , you're bound to pick up more than if you ran a couple miles in fighter school.

Really? The 20th level weak guy is better than the strong guy at arm wrestling, climbing and lifting weights because he saved the world? If that's as much common sense as you'd indicate, you'd think other games would have shot for it. Is it a problem that no other RPG (I know of) models this in the way you seem to think is obvious?

Again, 4e has a lot of great things going for it (I think it's the best group tactics RPG on the market and maybe better than any board game at it) but I don't see why people argue that the bugs are features.

 

[Aulirophile]

Really? The 20th level weak guy is better than the strong guy at arm wrestling, climbing and lifting weights because he saved the world? If that's as much common sense as you'd indicate, you'd think other games would have shot for it. Is it a problem that no other RPG (I know of) models this in the way you seem to think is obvious?

Again, 4e has a lot of great things going for it (I think it's the best group tactics RPG on the market and maybe better than any board game at it) but I don't see why people argue that the bugs are features.

Yes, the person approaching the status of Demi-God is stronger then some wet-behind-the-ears punk who lifts weights. I don't find that at all unreasonable, have you seen the statues of Gods? Not a wimp among them, regardless of their domain.