Input for starting a Star Wars Saga Edition game?

[Fifth Element]

Picture or it didn't happen

You want a 4-dimensional picture? You're blowing my mind.

 

[MerricB]

Just found the stats for the 14th level version of my Star Wars character:

Miles - Noble 10/Officer 4
Fort 25, Ref 29, Will 30.
Best skills: +21.
Attack: blaster +13
Relevant feats: Improved Defenses.

At this point, my best defense (Will) is giving a 50/50 chance against a regular Force User. However, I'm still utterly weak with Fort.

14th is about where the maths finally begins to work for skills vs defenses, btw. That's a lot of levels where it *doesn't* work.

 

[Umbran]

Sure it's not exact, but it's in the ball park isn't it?

Thing is, it is a pretty small ballpark. If the estimate is off by two, we're dropping from talking about a 50/50 chance (which some folks find acceptable, though I find a bit short for what is basically a PC encounter power), down to a 40% chance - which is where most folks will just punt and try something else if they can.

It isn't.

Your assertion is noted.

It does not match my personal experience - and that makes sense, because "typical" in this case is a matter of encounter and adventure design. If your GM isn't pitting you against the equivalent of PCs of your own level, this assertion may not be relevant.

At first level, your average Wookie Soldier will have a Will save of 10. The Dark Jedi is wandering around with a +12 to that check (trained, skill focus, 14 Cha).

I already said that yes, if they stack it on early, that feat gives people a big pump up for a while. We'd already mentioned that a level limit might do the trick.

By tenth level, the Wookie has managed to get his Will save up to 19, and the Dark Jedi has a +17 to his check. Still favors the Dark Jedi.

This is kind of a cherry-picked, worst case example, isn't it?

I would like to remember that we are talking about what house rules should be applied. That "people" (generic masses) can abuse the point isn't really relevant, because for this one game, we are talking about a handful - a handful the GM may know personally, and at least can speak to before play begins.

That a thing *can* be abused, in a general sense, doesn't matter when you can determine if it *will* be abused in your particular case, does it?

By twentieth level, the Wookie is at Will of 29, and he Dark Jedi is at +22. Still favours the Dark Jedi! (Actually, using skill bonuses, the Dark Jedi may well be at +24...)

Yes, and meanwhile, how many droids can that same wookie tear apart with his bare paws?

We have to be careful when we consider balance in game design - do you really want balance that says, "No choice you make in building your character can leave you vulnerable"? Yes, the Wookie has a low wisdom. That player chose to be a wookie, though, and he's gotten benefits from it that are being ignored in this analysis. The wookie is vulnerable to the Jedi, but someone else is vulnerable to the wookie. Rock-scissors-paper is one form of balance that is often seen as acceptable.

It's not very hard at all to target the weak defense of a character - and it'll be weak.

Well, here's the thing...

If a *PC* took that spread of powers, so he or she could *always* target the weak save (which assumes he knows which one is weak), that PC... now can't do a whole lot else. Jedi *stink* for skill choice, so you've now created a one-trick-pony character. Yes, it is very good at what it does, and it doesn't do a whole lot else. How bored is that player going to be?

And yeah, he's sure to get his one power hit in. But he only gets the one good shot for the encounter, unless he starts spending force points. And that one shot can be countered by one not-dark Jedi with Rebuke.

So, to me it isn't so clear-cut as the one example may make it seem.

Just found the stats for the 14th level version of my Star Wars character:

Miles - Noble 10/Officer 4
Fort 25, Ref 29, Will 30.
Best skills: +21.
Attack: blaster +13
Relevant feats: Improved Defenses.

At this point, my best defense (Will) is giving a 50/50 chance against a regular Force User. However, I'm still utterly weak with Fort.

Yes, but... what's your best skill give you against that force user?

You look like you're playing Miles Vorkosigan, there. Miles is an intelligence officer and fleet commander type. So, that skill should give him... a mercenary fleet against that Jedi?

The Deflect talent is notably weak against fire from capitol ships, you know.

14th is about where the maths finally begins to work for skills vs defenses, btw. That's a lot of levels where it *doesn't* work.

Correction - that's where the math begins to work - *if* the force user takes Skill Focus very early. In my party, none of us took Skill Focus at 1st level - when player behavior and choice is a large part of the question, it isn't only a question of maths, and you may not need to fix the rules to get what you want out of the game.

I know the OP didn't want to belabor this point, but I got here for a reason - to make the point that you don't necessarily need to beat the rules into submission just because math doesn't work in some theoretical cases. Those cases may not appear in your game!

 

[Quickleaf]

Thing is, it is a pretty small ballpark. If the estimate is off by two, we're dropping from talking about a 50/50 chance (which some folks find acceptable, though I find a bit short for what is basically a PC encounter power), down to a 40% chance - which is where most folks will just punt and try something else if they can.

So it sounds like with you're saying with non-optimized Jedi characters keeping Skill Focus (Use the Force) doesn't imbalance the math. I think I'm going to go with a flavor tweak to Skill Focus (Use the Force) which makes the Force-user hyper sensitive to disturbances in the Force, dark side corrupted places/objects, and telepathic bombardment (maybe with the caveat that a 10th level Jedi can control this sensitivity). This way it's a trade-off for either optimized or non-optimized Jedi characters, and becomes a question of "do I want to create extra grief for my character? does it fit the concept I have?"

I know the OP didn't want to belabor this point, but I got here for a reason - to make the point that you don't necessarily need to beat the rules into submission just because math doesn't work in some theoretical cases. Those cases may not appear in your game!

I do appreciate your input, and you inspired me to look more closely at the math for myself. It's nice to be coming into a time-tested game which has an active helpful community around it

Turns out the house rules I'll use are brief, simple, and make characters a bit closer to 4e D&D (the last game we played).

 

[Votan]

Yes, but... what's your best skill give you against that force user?

You look like you're playing Miles Vorkosigan, there. Miles is an intelligence officer and fleet commander type. So, that skill should give him... a mercenary fleet against that Jedi?

I think that this observation is the key point. It is perfectly okay if powerful Dark Jedi are capable of doing nasty things to you if, in parallel, you can do nasty things to them. The Noble likely has allies and friends. The Wookie can do very savage things to the Dark Jedi if he gets next to her.

In this you have balance.

My bet is that the Use the Force skill focus and progression was designed to make force powers really effective agaisnt weak opponents. But make high level characters better dealt with via lightsaber.

 

[Quickleaf]

Doing a bit more prep for the game, and I came up with the following "Where is my character from?" table for players not familiar with Star Wars and The Old Republic era.

Everything is canon, except for the Mandalorian Aliit, which is my version of what Mandalorian Space has become in 3636 BBY (17 ATC).

 

[Quickleaf]

I just realized that there are no Astrogation travel times for hyperspace in the core rulebook - apparently they're supposed to be on page 237 (according to the Vehicles section description of the hyperdrive multiplier of starships). But they're not there. I checked the errata and they're not there either. I'm puzzled.

Nothing crucial, but I'm trying to put together a map of the galaxy with hyperdrive travel times making it easy for the player to understand. I've based it on Star Wars Chronicles - Holonet (which I believe is from the West End Games d6 Star War RPG?).

Here is my first draft of the hyperdrive map...

 

[Quickleaf]

After much planning and consulting the d20 radio SWSE boards, I've completed my handsome writeup for the group's first adventure. Here it is for those who want to steal it for their own games. As always, advice/critique is welcome.

Cheers!

 

[fireinthedust]

I'll read over that adventure soon. Thanks for posting it!

Amazing thread, folks! I really do learn a lot by listening to various sides of a debate, and you lot have a lot of great perspectives.

I'm talking someone into running a SW game (with my help with books and stat blocks), and we're likely going to do things in a... well, a version of SW set during the trailers to the SW:TOR game, which were amazing. I like the setting: sith empire vs Jedi Republic, and the potential to have Sith show up by the ship-load to attack the Jedi Temple, or lead patrols of droids and soldiers in battle, well, it's exciting stuff.

I was thinking about some heavy house rules myself, but I may suggest we go relatively RAW, but with skill focus UTF/Use Computer being at higher levels.

What level would you suggest for SF:UTF? And for UC?

Also: I'd really like some great stat blocks, especially for Sith at various levels.

And what do you think of porting over gear from d20 Future and d20 Cybernetics? With the obligatory number swapping (saving throws, spin them around into attacks on defences, etc.), could adding to the arsenal of non-force users help balance them out? Or make the game more fun for bounty hunters and smugglers?


What do you think of creating a mash-up class for Smugglers, Scouts and possibly Nobles? I don't like that Scoundrels are at a disadvantage what looks like) for gun-slinging at higher levels. As well, I know that Nobles can dominate social interactions, but without multiclassing perhaps a single, unified scout/noble/scoundrel class could give these characters more of something to do? They'd still have access to the various talent trees on a case-by-case basis (ie: are they a noble scion? No? Then no lineage talent for the outer rim moisture farmer).


And tips for creating Dark Jedi/Sith would be helpful. If they have their own Order and planets and empire, I assume using the Jedi class would be fine. Is the weapons expert a good option for them?


Sorry for the disorganization, I'm also brain dumping.

 

[Spatula]

FWIW, my experience with the game matches Merric's and not Umbran's. Using skills to target defenses is crazy over-powered except at the upper levels, and healing really, really sucks. The UtF thing isn't even really a matter of abuse - all the force characters in the book have Skill Focus: UtF, and why wouldn't you? +5 to hit! At 1st level you're rolling +12 (not even an optimized build!) or more to hit and your non-force buddies are rolling around +3 to hit. Fights are a breeze up until the jedi runs out of juice, at which point they become a chore. To me, it's a bizarre design decision that drags down an otherwise okay game.