Inserting a bit of wizardry in the sorcerer (and bard).

[AGGEMAM]

But a Sor 10 / Wiz 10 could cast an incredible amount of spells having spell-engine capabilities of a sorceror and the the versatility of a wizard.

Any decent Sor 10 / Wiz 10 would have Int and Cha scores of at least 20, that would give this monster spellcaster:

- - Spells per day per level - -
0th - 1st - 2nd - 3rd - 4th - 5th

.10 - .14 - .12 - .11 - .10 - ...7

That is a whole lot of spells per day!!

In a party this could actually turn out to be the best type of spellcaster.

 

[Gez]

But a Sor 10 / Wiz 10 could cast an incredible amount of spells having spell-engine capabilities of a sorceror and the the versatility of a wizard.

Any decent Sor 10 / Wiz 10 would have Int and Cha scores of at least 20, that would give this monster spellcaster:

- - Spells per day per level - -
0th - 1st - 2nd - 3rd - 4th - 5th

.10 - .14 - .12 - .11 - .10 - ...7

That is a whole lot of spells per day!!

In a party this could actually turn out to be the best type of spellcaster.

Lots of good would it make him. Especially given that if he concentrated on one ability score instead of two he would had far better save DC against his spells; and he would have 6th level spells and up. Some monsters (Rakshasa, for example) are immune to spells below level 6, IIRC. Plus there is Invincibility Globe, or whatever it's called, that do the same thing.

Beside, let' see:

Wizard 20, base spells per day:
0:4, 1:4, 2:4, 3:4, 4:4, 5:4, 6:4, 7:4, 8:4, 9:4
Total: 40, plus bonus spells for high Int.
Sorcerer 20, base spell per day:
0:6, 1:6, 2:6, 3:6, 4:6, 5:6, 6:6, 7:6, 8:6, 9:6
Total: 60, plus bonus spells for high Cha.

Wizard 10/Sorcerer 10
0:10, 1:10, 2:10, 3:9, 4:8, 5:7
Total: 54, plus bonus spells for high Cha and high Int.

Given that each 2 points in an ability scores means bonus spells, we can estimate that bonus spells for high ability score are about equal if spread out between two classes and two abilities, or if concentrated on only one.

Our dual-classed don't cast more spells than a sorcerer. He do cast some more than a wizard, though. He's happy. No comes the questions: "how many magic missiles is worth a meteor swarm ? How many phantasmal killer is worth a weird ? How many scare is worth a power word, kill ? How many charm person is worth a mass charm ?" And then there is also the problem of metamagic feats, whose cost is always in heightened spell slots, never in more numerous spell slots.

I stand by my affirmation that a multiclassed spellcaster is unbalanced in the weak side compared to a single classed spellcaster. This don't matter much if he's something like a wizard/rogue or fighter/cleric, but it does if he's a bard/cleric; or worse, a wizard/sorcerer (at least a arcane/divine combination allows to get spells he wouldn't be able to know otherwise, and to use most scrolls, staves and wands; whereas the wizard/sorcerer has the same magic item "limitations" as a pure wizard or sorc).

The thing to remember is that a 6th-level spell is more powerful than two 5th-level spells.

 

[AGGEMAM]

I stand by my affirmation that a multiclassed spellcaster is unbalanced in the weak side compared to a single classed spellcaster.

I stand mine, that it is not, as well!

The thing to remember is that a 6th-level spell is more powerful than two 5th-level spells.

Actually, by the rules, no. A 6th level spell is approx. the same as two 4th, three 3rd, four 2nd, 8 1st, or 16 0th level. Or one-and-a-half 5th level spell.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

Taking a look at this feat, I immediately thought that it was overpowered. Looking at it again, I'm not sure anymore. Anyway, some thoughts:

Pro:
1. False Premises of the con argument: Sorcerors only lack flexibility at low level or if they're designed that way. (And a sorceror doesn't have to follow the "battle-station" design to be effective). A high level sorceror can afford to have only a half dozen or so attack spells (I created a spectacularly effective 14th level sorceror with magic missile, acid arrow, fireball, Cone of Cold, chain lightning, and Summon Monster VII for offense. (And he probably could have done just as well without acid arrow or chain lightning) With Energy Substitution and Empower Spell, he had all the combat flexibility he needed and was able to take spells like detect thoughts, feather fall, haste, rope trick, fly, polymorph self, teleport, greater dispelling, etc. There were only a few capabilities he lacked and those were easily filled by scrolls.)
Consequence: the feat isn't really necessary at high levels.

2. Number of feats required: For a single classed sorceror or bard, this requires arcane preparation and scribe scroll. Scribe scroll isn't really very good for sorcerors. Furthermore, arcane preparation has negative synergy with this because it's primarily useful for two things: 1. Metamagic which requires feats the sorceror no longer has (since this ability took three of them). 2. Gaining the Mage of the Arcane Order prestige class (which is a more efficient method of flexibility and makes this feat a waste).
Consequence: any sorceror selecting this feat can't have all the nifty metamagic feats that give sorcerors versatility and power.

Con:
1. Any sorceror/wizard can take this as a single feat. This would make the sorceror a vastly superior version of the wizard class that gained new power levels two levels behind the wizard. That's a massive advantage. The multi-class is a pretty significant drawback too though. . . .
Consequence: Any sorceror willing to be two levels behind the wizard (in terms of highest level spell castable) can be a spontaneous casting wizard.

2. The intelligence limitation on prepared spells is largely irrelevant. A sorceror could gain a huge repertory of useful spells with a 12 intelligence and a 14 would be good for almost any spell the sorceror ever wanted to use a spellbook for.
Consequence: Most sorcerors designed to have enough skills to take prestige classes (and how many aren't?) will have enough intelligence to get all the use they want out of the feat. Even if they don't have the int naturally, a headband of intellect +2 is only 4000gp which is pocket change to a high level sorceror and doesn't fill up an otherwise useful item slot (like a cloak, gloves, amulet, etc).

On the whole, a sorceror with this feat is probably less unbalanced than a sorceror of the Arcane Order. That doesn't mean it's balanced though. At the moment, I can't see this as a "must-have" feat but I didn't realize how useful glitterdust was until I saw it used against my character either. . . . I think it's balanced enough to try playtesting in any event.

 

[gamecat]

Absolutely. Positively. Not. This is like giving sneak attack dice, monk unarmed damage, a paladin's divine grace, or bardic knowledge for a measly feat. You just want an ubersorcerer. Argh.

 

[Gez]

I have the feeling you hadn't even read past the third line, gamecat.

By the way, I know lots of prestige class that give sneak attack (like assassin), monk unarmed damage (several in S&F), divine grace (several in DotF), or bardic knowledge (loremaster, all harper classes).

 

[gamecat]

Yes, but those are PRESTIGE CLASSES, not feats! Arcane Preparation is an asskicking overpowered feat. What's good for the goose is good for the gander, I want my spontaneous casting feat, and I want it now!

edited for color error

 

[Gez]

That's what I said, you havn't read past the third line. I've made both a feat and a prestige class, and I ask what's the best.

And Arcane Preparation pretty sucks. Did you know you can only prepare arcane spells that you know ? Not from a spellbook ? It's only purpose, as far as it go officially, is to allow sorcerers and bards to use the Quicken Spell metamagic feat. I have made it a prerequisite of the Greater Arcane Preparation custom feat, along with Scribe Scroll. And there are lots of limitations I don't have the impression you have taken notice of.

 

[gamecat]

Arcane preparation makes a sorceror a wizard. On the fly, full-round metamagic is a sorcerous thing, preparing 1-action metamagic is a wizardly thing. This gives the sorcerer the best of both worlds, able to have 1-action metamagic *and* spontaneous metamagic. Howsabout a feat where wizards can cast spontaneous metamagic? I can already see the "NO! THAT'S THE SORCERER'S JOB!" reactions. You give the sorceror the best of both worlds, if arcane preparation sucks in your world, I take it everything else does.

 

[Nellisir]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Nellisir
I'm not a big fan of the idea. Using the feat (or the class), a sorcerer can essentially replace a wizard. Most wizard spell slots end up being used for the same spells as a sorcerer -- big bang damage stuff -- and only one or two slots per spell level end up being devoted to the more esoteric spells (knock, sending, whathaveyou). Given that, and the lack of restriction on spells known, a sorcer using this feat or class would gain something close to the flexibility of a wizard without an appreciable loss of power -- certainly more than warranted by a feat.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



The power loss is in feat slot (remember, neither sorcerer nor bards have bonus feats like the wizard, and you have to take 2 feats before taking either the feat or the class: Arcane Preparation and Scribe Scroll); and for the purpose of the less limiting prestige class, in the familiar ability.

I certainly wouldn't call Scribe Scroll a useless feat, and I'm not convinced Arcane Preparation is either. So, given a prereq. of two feats (plus Int, etc) a sorcerer might have taken anyways, the value of this feat is tremendous.

I think it's overpowered. I think the class is overpowered.

Nell.