D&D (2024) Inspiration From Nat 20 Will Bog Down The Game

[Mistwell]

Whatever, man.

My advice is that if somebody’s stance strikes you as leading to an illogical conclusion, ask them about it instead of telling them what they are saying.

Or don’t, and try to win teh Interwebz.

No, it's not whatever man. Now that it's super clear he was in fact making a binary argument, after you went on post after post claiming I misrepresented what he was saying, this is the point where an adult says, "Whoops, you're right, sorry about that." I didn't tell him what he was saying, I accurately read what he was saying and responded to what he was saying, He agrees that is in fact what he was saying and only you jumped in with the snark for no reason. It's you, and only you, who misread it and then tried to "correct" people about some "spectrum of quality of players" nonsense.

 

[Bill Zebub]

No, it's not whatever man. Now that it's super clear he was in fact making a binary argument, after you went on post after post claiming I misrepresented what he was saying, this is the point where an adult says, "Whoops, you're right, sorry about that." I didn't tell him what he was saying, I accurately read what he was saying and responded to what he was saying, He agrees that is in fact what he was saying and only you jumped in with the snark for no reason. It's you, and only you, who misread it and then tried to "correct" people about some "spectrum of quality of players" nonsense.

First, the post that you are claiming proves a sweeping condemnation of all players seeking advantage says:

If, in any DnD game, the players actions begin to slow the game down past what the table can bear the GM should step in and say "Hey everyone, constantly focusing on X (X can be fishing for inspiration or searching for traps) is ruining the game. Can you please dial it back?"

If the game continues to be ruined by those actions....it's bad players.

Now, in the version of English I learned that's pretty clearly describing some players who push the behavior beyond a certain point. Not all of them, just those on one end of that spectrum. If you read that sentence differently then I honestly don't know where to go from there.

Second, even if you were correct, when you begin a post with "So what you're saying is..." then it looks an awful lot like you're not engaging in genuine discussion but instead just trying to win the Internet.

I won't make any suggestions about what adults should do at this point. Your choices are yours.

 

[James Gasik]

Mathematically speaking, if more Inspiration is being handed out in game, and thus is being used more, and a 20 roll grants Inspiration, wouldn't the use of Inspiration make it more likely for more 20's to be rolled?

 

[Chaosmancer]

Honestly, the thing that gets me about this argument?

The players who are seeking advantage at every turn are going to be way smarter about this than making endless, pointless checks.

Rolling the die has a 5% chance of getting inspirtation.

Taking the Musician feat has a 100% chance of giving two to six people inspiration. Being a human has a 100% chance of giving them inspiration. Being a human who gets two feats, you could take Musician and Lucky, which gives another 2 to 6 instances of advantage.

This means at level 1 you would have three instances of advantage before needing a short rest to use musician to get another instance of advantage. And you can give two instances of inspirtation to the party, meaning half of you have the thing. 100% guaranteed, no need to check for traps or attack chairs. Add in being a divination wizard for even more dice manipulation.


Additionally, if you have inspiration and are saving it for a saving throw or death save... you won't be seeking to get more inspiration, because you can't use it.

So, really, this is one of those situations where you have a player who has analyzed the game to find an exploit, but hasn't analyzed the game enough to realize that their exploit is a terribly ineffective way to achieve their goal, and thus causes a problem that is entire unneccesary.

And if you still have players doing everything that they possibly can to get inspiration, then remind them that you can still give inspiration for RP, and give them a free one at the start of every day. Then they have it, and they don't need to ruin your game. And if they need more, they RP for it, which is again, far more reliable than a 5% chance per roll.

 

[JiffyPopTart]

So we're all clear now on the issue. You WERE in fact saying "bad players" and not some "spectrum" of quality of players. It was a binary statement you were in fact making and I was not somehow misrepresenting what you said.



No and I never said or implied searching for traps every 5' square. I gave examples, you responded to those examples, you know what I was referring to, and now you're acting like I was talking about searching every 5 feet?


I didn't say or imply thousands. Why do you keep strawmanning what I said?

You seem hung up on the spectrum thing, so let me clarify.

I said: If players are inspiration fishing so much it's disturbing your game and they don't stop when you ask them the problem is bad players, not bad rules.

You said: So now you are saying all players trying to gain an advantage are bad?

Bill Zebub said: He didn't say all players who seek advantage are bad, just those seeking advantage to the point of ruining the game. Players seeking advantage are a spectrum and those who are ruining the game are bad.

Clearer?

 

[JiffyPopTart]

rs. I started the conversation, and he had responded to it, with a list of examples none of which were anything like attacking chairs. They're ALL things players already do (check a door for traps, listen at a door for creatures, check for secret doors, try and identify various symbols on walls, etc..) but they might be inclined to do it more where they otherwise wouldn't have, which has a TENDANCY to slow the game down. See how that was never stated as an extreme like you tried to spin it?

Seems like you decided to strawman me claiming I was taking it to the extreme, and then your strawman took it to the extreme? Or had you just not read the posts leading up to this?

For some reason you keep conflating posts I replied to you and posts I replied to another user as being one and the same conversation.

The ridiculous extreme examples were indeed NOT said by you, but we're instead by other posters in this thread....one of which I replied to directly to call out as nonsensical but which you chose to step in and defend.

So I'll repost the contents here and you can decide for yourself if this post is a reasonable expectation for how new inspiration might work in a game.

"In a good game anything the game lets you do is built into the math of the game. Therefore either D&D 5th and One D&D are not good games OR the players are supposed to spam Guidance on every single roll they can and it is already built into the math.
Thus we can logically conclude that, in One D&D, players are meant to spam for Inspiration constantly, almost always have Inspiration, and then apply it to every roll that matters. Thus, when One D&D players loose their Inspiration every morning, they are supposed to immediately start doing trivial things, pressure the DM into leting them roll for them, and all gain Inspiration as soon as they can every morning. One possible way that they could do this, if their DM says No to their rolling for trivial skill checks, is by attacking and killing random Commoners. Doing the math if four PC's each murder 50 Commoners every morning, using attack rolls to do so, then they are almost sure to have each rolled a 20 during the process, gaining Inspiration. Then they just kill the big bad (the other big bad, now that they are all serial mass killers) that same day, spening their Inspiration to make it easier."

 

[Bill Zebub]

Then they just kill the big bad (the other big bad, now that they are all serial mass killers) that same day, spening their Inspiration to make it easier."

I'll double down on my point that the potential gain of this strategy is minor. Sure, advantage is pretty helpful on one roll*. But boss fights usually involve more than one roll, and killing a bunch of commoners so that you can get a bonus on a single one of them is...a waste of everybody's time.

*Although I'll point out that the "equivalent to +5" is only true if the raw d20 roll you need is close to 10. If you have a chance to succeed that's much greater or lower that value drops off. The impact would be a lot greater with the house rule that says Advantage can be used to re-roll.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Mod Note:

@Bill Zebub @Mistwell

Perhaps this is the time to disengage with each other, because you’re just butting heads at this point.

 

[pnewman]

The game lets me put a 3 in my most important stat and still play. Am I supposed to be doing that because it's an option?

But you didn't answer the question...do the players at your table use guidance on every single check in the game it can be used?

No, they do not, but when they do not they are making a mistake because when I selected the DC of the check I had to assume that they would use Guidance, because they often do. When they forget they are only hurting themselves.
Similarly, if gaining Inspiration on any Nat 20 becomes a rule I will have to make every fight harder to account for the possibility of them spending it more often. Currently they hoard Inspiration in case they have to make Death Saves so clearly I will have to force them to make more Death Saves to use up those extra Inspirations.

 

[MarkB]

This is one of those things that may make an initial impact, but not a long-term one. Players may initially be enamoured of the new Inspiration system, and deliberately go out fishing for extra Inspiration, but within a few sessions most will settle down and just go back to playing the game in regular fashion.

Of course, this does make it a bit of an awkward one to playtest, as you're likely to see more of that first part than the second during the brief time you're trying out the rules.