Inspire Courage + Greatness + Heriocs

[Artoomis]

So are Wands, but you need a free hand to use one.

For most practical purposes, both of our interpretations agree that these two effects would stack for at least 5 rounds. As a wise poster above has mentioned, that's more than enough for most fights.

The main reason I don't like the multiple maintenance thingy is that a Warforged Bard (or other non-sleeper) could maintain all of the non-concentration effects indefinitely. :\

Cheers, -- N

True enough. I was only pointing out how the rules are written. Avoiding abuse of the rules is the DM's job. Maybe the DM/Player partnership is a better way to put that.

Anyway, we know that keeping the song abilities going does require some sort of reasonably robust sound, so that is a balancing factor (after all, it's more than a bit weird to wander everywhere sing "Kill the wabbit, kill the wabbit, with my spear and magic helmet..." (or whatever) to inspire your group.

I see the real potential for non-abusive use to be when preparing for an "alpha strike" scenario where you bring everything to bear all at once. Of course, with the feat that gives you 10 rounds of residual effects rather five, than you can readily do that anyway.

The real potential for abuse comes when combining this with the feat that lets you do bardic music wihout making any noise and teh feat that lets you cast spells without having to stop a song. That can set up the situation where you have all three going at once and keep them going for a very long time... without the accompanying loud noises. Then again, it costs a feat or two to do that, and this does not really become an issue until high levels, so maybe it's not so bad after all.

So, yes, this might be abused and therefore disallowed in a game. Still, that does not change the fact that the rules allow it.

BTW: I would not allow a warforged to keep this going indenfinately. I would rule that:

1. You can't keep this going and also rest to get your spells regenerated for the next day.
2. You can't keep this going and also get all your bardic music uses regenerated for the next day.
3. You'll have social problems if you really try and keep this going at all times.

Other than that, I'd say go for it. It's not going to "break" the game, and, if really tweaked, comes at considerable cost for the bard in terms of feats and magic used.

I would generally not allow an NPC bardic cohort to be fully tweaked for this, though, as the potential for abuse there is really high. Then again, I would not give someone exactly what they wanted for a cohort - I'd make you look for one, and then you get what you find.

 

[roguerouge]

How is it game breaking again for a 9th level bard to take 2 standard actions to give +2 attacks and damage to all (and +1 vs. charm/fear) and to give ONE target: 11+CON HPs, an additional +2 to attack, and a +1 competence bonus on Fortitude saves?

At ninth level, the cleric can spend those two round doing Righteous Might and Divine Power, the wizard can use Wall of Force and Baleful Polymorph, the druid can wild shape and stoneskin, and the others can get 1-2 full attack routines.

And the bard weaving two melodies together to grant these bonuses is unbalancing?

I MUST be missing a conniving application here.

 

[darthkilmor]

Bardic Music is a single ability. Nothing allows you to use that ability in combination with itself.

As a DM I would allow a bard PC to maintain two at once. One song/poem, and one instrumental (that didnt require the mouth to use, so no flutes).

Or if the character was an Ettin, I'd let two songs and two instruments that could be used one-handed.

Or that CR 17 thing in FF? that can do two full actions a round.

 

[Artoomis]

...

I MUST be missing a conniving application here.

Issues of using feats and magic items to boost the effects aside, the main "conniving application" is to get these three songs going for every member of the party well before any encounters.

Of course, if a bard does indeed totally get tweaked for boosting the various Inspire effects, the results of this approach can be quite... impressive.

 

[Nifft]

True enough. I was only pointing out how the rules are written. Avoiding abuse of the rules is the DM's job. Maybe the DM/Player partnership is a better way to put that.

Nah, I'm not conceding that "the rules don't say I can't" means that you can. Even if you are able to ignore the single ability restriction, there's also the implicit restriction on simultaneous performances (e.g. to earn money, you can't make two simultaneous Perform checks and take the better result), and the fact that "playing an instrument in combination with some spoken performance" is specifically defined as a single use of Bardic Music.

Then there's common sense, but hopefully we won't have to resort to that.

Anyway, we know that keeping the song abilities going does require some sort of reasonably robust sound, so that is a balancing factor (after all, it's more than a bit weird to wander everywhere sing "Kill the wabbit, kill the wabbit, with my spear and magic helmet..." (or whatever) to inspire your group.

It's to hide the presence of the Cleric in Fullplate.

I see the real potential for non-abusive use to be when preparing for an "alpha strike" scenario where you bring everything to bear all at once. Of course, with the feat that gives you 10 rounds of residual effects rather five, than you can readily do that anyway.

There's also Song of the White Raven, which allows you to start a Bard Song as a Swift action. So first round of combat you could start two songs (one Swift, one Standard), and the second round you could start the third song as a Swift, using your Standard to cast a spell or whatever.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Artoomis]

.... There's also Song of the White Raven, which allows you to start a Bard Song as a Swift action. So first round of combat you could start two songs (one Swift, one Standard), and the second round you could start the third song as a Swift, using your Standard to cast a spell or whatever.

Cheers, -- N

True enough, along with many ways to tweak bardic music.

If you could only find a way to do one using an immediate action, you could do swift and standard during your first turn and then immediately thereafter do an immediate for the third one. Even if you do not allow these song to be maintained together, you'd still have all three going for the entire comabt, most likely. In any case, if you start with one active., you could potentially do the other to the first round.

The primary time this having mutiple songs active at the same time makes a difference is between combats - keeping three songs going all the way up to the next combat is clearly more effective than only one song active.

If combat is expected, then at least one Inspire should be active. As written, the rules allow you to have all three Inspires active, if you meet all the requirements (ranks in perform, and level requirements).

There is little doubt, at least in my mind, that the three different Inspire abiliteis may all be active at the same time, as the rules are written. That's because the rules give very, very specific conditions that end the active use of one of these Inspire abilities, and using another one of them does not meet the citeria for having to end maintaining the previous one.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

There's also Song of the White Raven, which allows you to start a Bard Song as a Swift action. So first round of combat you could start two songs (one Swift, one Standard), and the second round you could start the third song as a Swift, using your Standard to cast a spell or whatever.

Cheers, -- N

Only partially true. It allows you to start Inspire Courage as a swift (and only while in a WR stance, if it matters), so you wouldn't likely be benefiting from it two rounds in a row, since the Inspire Courage will linger for 5 rounds anyway. You gain no benefit to the time it takes to use any other bardic music.

 

[Nifft]

Only partially true. It allows you to start Inspire Courage as a swift (and only while in a WR stance, if it matters), so you wouldn't likely be benefiting from it two rounds in a row, since the Inspire Courage will linger for 5 rounds anyway. You gain no benefit to the time it takes to use any other bardic music.

You're absolutely right. Thank you. (This trick only shaves ONE round off, which isn't as good as I'd thought, but is still something.)

Thanks, -- N

 

[Nifft]

That's because the rules give very, very specific conditions that end the active use of one of these Inspire abilities, and using another one of them does not meet the citeria for having to end maintaining the previous one.

Really? I can't find anything except the implicit rule that allies must be able to hear you sing.

What are these "very, very specific conditions"?

Thanks, -- N

 

[Jhaelen]

What we're wondering about is whether this action ends the inspire courage song and starts that five-round countdown to the end of the effect, or if the bard can continue both songs at once. The pro is that 'using bardic music' is not on the explicit list of things you can't do while maintaining a bardice music effect. The con is, as far as I can tell, that it's just obvious that you can't sing two different songs at once. Which is probably true, but that doesn't mean it's the rule.

Thanks for the clarification. I had a feeling things were more complicated than I initially thought

My gut feeling is that starting a new song was indeed intended to start the five-round countdown, but I can the see how someone might argue otherwise. If there was a rule on an absolute maximum duration for maintaining a song, I'd say it doesn't really matter either way. But since there isn't (or is there?), it is potentially abusable and thus shouldn't be possible, imho.