Inspire Courage + Greatness + Heriocs

[mvincent]

if the character was an Ettin, I'd let two songs

Hydra Bards!

 

[Artoomis]

Nah, I'm not conceding that "the rules don't say I can't" means that you can.

The rules are quite specific on this. Only certain things cause you to stop maintaining one of these non-concentration-required bardic music abilites. Using a "Su" ability is not one of those things, ergo, using a Su abiolity does not stop the previous ability from on-going functioning. All the "Inspire" abilities are Su abilities. And there you have it.

Even if you are able to ignore the single ability restriction,...

Each bardic music ability is it's own ability, so much so, that some are "Su" and some are "Sp." They are not a "single ability..." nor is there a "single ability" use restriction anyway. You may use an ability mutiple times if that ability has no rule that prevents such a use. You simply follow the rules on when you are allowed to use that ability - though, of course, using the same ability mutiple time normally has no ebenfit. If I were to use Inspire Courage (or any other Inspire ability) and then, while still maintaining it, use the same Inspire ability again, there would be no net gain at all. Stacking issues aside, it would be a "same source" problem, so no stacking with itself.

... there's also the implicit restriction on simultaneous performances (e.g. to earn money, you can't make two simultaneous Perform checks and take the better result),

See above post on "contrapuntal" music. You could play two songs at once, perhaps, but that does not matter when the music is non-magical.

and the fact that "playing an instrument in combination with some spoken performance" is specifically defined as a single use of Bardic Music.

While these abilities fall under the category of bardic music and the descriptions discuss singing or playing instruments, they can all be activated by reciting poetry, chanting, singing lyrical songs, singing melodies, whistling, playing an instrument, or playing an instrument in combination with some spoken performance

Nothing in there about this applying to a single (only) use of Barid Music. This just describes what sort of thing is required to be done to activate any one of these abiltiies.

...Then there's common sense, but hopefully we won't have to resort to that.

It's to hide the presence of the Cleric in Fullplate.
...Cheers, -- N

Common sense is pretty much all that's left for your argument. The rules are really pretty clear, but it's fine to apply "common sense" if you like - though folks will, of course, disagree over how "common sense" applies, so I cannot argue against what you consider "common sense." The again, we have actual rules so that we do not need to rely upon everyone's different views of "common sense."

All of my reponse is only about what the rules actually say, and not about how you might apply those rules in your game - that's an entirely different matter. I would not presume to tell you how you should play your own game!

 

[Artoomis]

Really? I can't find anything except the implicit rule that allies must be able to hear you sing.

What are these "very, very specific conditions"?

Thanks, -- N

Well, they are right there in the description of how bardic music abilities work:

"Starting a bardic music effect is a standard action. Some bardic music abilities require concentration, which means the bard must take a standard action each round to maintain the ability. Even while using bardic music that doesn’t require concentration, a bard cannot cast spells, activate magic items by spell completion (such as scrolls), spell trigger (such as wands), or command word. "


Other actions may be taken while maintaining ability that is currently in use. There is a non-stated implication that you actually need to keep using a performance skill, but that's not actually stated. Even so, it would be fair to say that if the bard was, say, silenced, that the effect would then move into it's 5-round residual effect state.

However, nothing states (or even clearly implies) that one cannot weave a new performance into the old one and end up with two abilities active and maintained at the same time.

An accomplished performer in the real world can indeed often do more than one performance at a time using the same instrument(s) and/or voice, as was pointed out above.

Not only that, the performance need not be continual, it seems, only on-going in some way. That's because even the abilities that require concentraion only require only a standard action to maintain - implying that the performance need not be truly continual.

The last point, however, is completely unimportant to my argument and only serves to refute your argument about only one performance at a time.

 

[VanRichten]

Perform: Singing - Inspire Courage

Perform: String Insturments - Inspire Greatness

Perform: Dance - Inspire Heroics

You could indead do all 3 and keep them all going as well. However you could do nothing more than make a move action each turn while you do all 3. Being as you are Singing, Playing an Instrument, and Dancing. It would also cost you 3 uses of your bardic ability as well.

 

[VanRichten]

Perform: Singing - Inspire Courage

Perform: String Insturments - Inspire Greatness

Perform: Dance - Inspire Heroics

You could indeed do all 3 and keep them all going as well. However you could do nothing more than make a move action each turn while you do all 3. Being as you are Singing, Playing an Instrument, and Dancing. It would also cost you 3 uses of your bardic ability as well.

 

[Nifft]

Well, they are right there in the description of how bardic music abilities work:

"Starting a bardic music effect is a standard action. Some bardic music abilities require concentration, which means the bard must take a standard action each round to maintain the ability. Even while using bardic music that doesn’t require concentration, a bard cannot cast spells, activate magic items by spell completion (such as scrolls), spell trigger (such as wands), or command word. "

That's not a list of end-conditions, that's a list of precluded actions. Death is not listed, for example. Do you claim that a Bard can play an instrument and make a Climb check at the same time? (Or while dead?)

Other actions may be taken while maintaining ability that is currently in use. There is a non-stated implication that you actually need to keep using a performance skill, but that's not actually stated. Even so, it would be fair to say that if the bard was, say, silenced, that the effect would then move into it's 5-round residual effect state.

Yes, it does. Individual abilities each last so long as the targets can hear the Bard's song. When that song from that Bard can't be heard -- for example, if it stops, or if he starts another song -- then the 5 round count down starts.

However, nothing states (or even clearly implies) that one cannot weave a new performance into the old one and end up with two abilities active and maintained at the same time.

"Nothing says you can't" is different from "you can". (Nothing in the rules says that a Rogue can't use Bardic Music, right? He has Perform on his class list and everything! But there's absolutely nothing which says he can, and thus he cannot.)

Cheers, -- N

 

[Nifft]

Perform: Singing - Inspire Courage

Perform: String Insturments - Inspire Greatness

Perform: Dance - Inspire Heroics

You could indeed do all 3 and keep them all going as well. However you could do nothing more than make a move action each turn while you do all 3. Being as you are Singing, Playing an Instrument, and Dancing. It would also cost you 3 uses of your bardic ability as well.

No. Even if you were allowed to stack the ability with itself, which you are not, "dance" doesn't qualify.

Bardic Music

Once per day per bard level, a bard can use his song or poetics to produce magical effects (...)

Cheers, -- N

 

[Hypersmurf]

Yes, it does. Individual abilities each last so long as the targets can hear the Bard's song. When that song from that Bard can't be heard -- for example, if it stops, or if he starts another song -- then the 5 round count down starts.

The effects last as long as the allies can hear the bard singing.

Round one - he takes a standard action to activate Inspire Courage, and he is singing. His allies can hear him singing.

Round two - he takes a standard action to activate Inspire Greatness, and he is singing. His allies can hear him singing, therefore Inspire Courage is maintained.

Round three - he takes a standard action to activate Inspire Heroics, and he is singing. His allies can hear him singing, therefore Inspire Courage is maintained and Inspire Greatness is maintained.

Round four - he takes a standard action to trip an orc with his whip, and he is singing. His allies can hear him singing, therefore Inspire Courage is maintained, and Inspire Greatness is maintained, and Inspire Heroics is maintained.

He doesn't need to sing Eye of the Tiger to Inspire Courage, and then stop singing Eye of the Tiger and start singing You're The Best to Inspire Greatness. He cann channel all his bardic music through You Are My Sunshine, if he wants.

-Hyp.

 

[Artoomis]

No. Even if you were allowed to stack the ability with itself, which you are not, "dance" doesn't qualify. Cheers, -- N

On that, we agree.

 

[Artoomis]

...He doesn't need to sing Eye of the Tiger to Inspire Courage, and then stop singing Eye of the Tiger and start singing You're The Best to Inspire Greatness. He cann channel all his bardic music through You Are My Sunshine, if he wants.

-Hyp.

Quite right, though I had not thought about it exactly that way. It helps to remember that this is a supernatural ability - that is, it functions in a way that is not natural (it's magic!).