Insubstantial's effects

[Pielorinho]

My players stay away, please.


From p 277:

Insubstantial
Some creatures, such as wailing ghosts, are insubstantial, and some powers can make you insubstantial. When you are insubstantial, you take half damage from any attack that deals damage to you. Ongoing damage is also halved.

I can see the point of this phrasing for PCs, and for creatures that may spend part of their time insubstantial For creatures that are always insubstantial, however, is there any reason for me as a DM not to just double their hit points?

The only thing I can think of is that when you halve damage, you round down odd numbers, which would make it very very slightly harder to kill these guys (compared to doubling hit points, which would lead to no rounding). But it seems like it'd make the math just a little bit easier, which is a great thing to do in the middle of combat.

Also, I've got an insubstantial solo creature coming up. I worry that it's going to take a boringly long time to kill it: ~200 hit points against a bunch of 2nd-level characters is bad enough, and doubling that is gonna make it take forever, I fear. Any suggestions?

Daniel

 

[karlindel]

It would make a difference if any of the PCs have the feat Inescapable Force. Other than that, I can't really think of any.

 

[s-dub]

Maybe come up with a way for the players to lower HP via good roleplaying and or skill checks

Maybe they come across a diagram that lets them use insight to lure the monster to a place they can force it to become corporeal.

Maybe they rescue a cleric who gives them some components the party can brew together to make a potion bomb that only affects that particular creature (using religion or nature skill check) or that joins the party with a decent diplomacy check (just give him a power or two that buffs the party's damage and have him stay back, or have him do X damage per round without letting the players in on it)

Maybe they find an old dagger that will finish it off in one hit when they bloody it but has a curse.

 

[Kordeth]

Bear in mind insubstantial critters seem to have lower hp totals than other monsters of their role and level. The Phantom Warrior, for example, has 40 hp, while other level 4 soldiers have between 55 and 60. The Trap Haunt has 52, while the doppelganger assassin has 69. Dropping your solo's hp to 75%-80% recommended might be a good idea if it's always insubstantial.

 

[Pielorinho]

Karlindel, thanks for the observation! None of my PCs have that feat, so it shouldn't be a problem.

s-dub, that's a very interesting idea.

The solo will be in a crypt room, one of the high priests of a certain sect. The PCs will pass through some other rooms on the way, and it's possible they could find a weakening item to use. His corpse will also be in the room. Hmm. Maybe they could find a holy symbol that would bind him to his corpse. I'll have to think about that....any ideas are welcome.

Daniel

 

[Hypersmurf]

I can see the point of this phrasing for PCs, and for creatures that may spend part of their time insubstantial For creatures that are always insubstantial, however, is there any reason for me as a DM not to just double their hit points?

Not really, but they couldn't exactly put the rule like that in the books:

"While you have the insubstantial condition, take half damage from all attacks. Unless you're always insubstantial, in which case you don't."

So as a DM accounting trick, it works fine. As a codified rule, it's ugly.

-Hyp.

 

[Evilhalfling]

I like the idea of binding it to its own corpse - a religion based skill challange in the midst of combat could be interesting. The most obvious result would be to make it substantial, but it might loose a few powers in the bargin.

I am planning a similar encounter, with a Spector with a cleric template. (elite)
Opposite set up though, its will be the players temple, and the foe is there ex-choir master. He has self healing from the template, but I cut it down to 75% of what it should heal,

 

[Syrsuro]

Also, technically, you effectively do less damage proportionally when you halve damage compared to doubling hit points.

When you halve damage, you round all fractions down to 0, so any time you do an odd value damage you do slightly less than half damage. If you doubled the total hit points, this rounding loss would not occur.

It may or may not be intentional, but its a reality of the RAW.

Carl

 

[thatdarnedbob]

One advantage of keywording insubstantial is that it opens up future design space. You can have monsters, traps and powers that all treat insubstantial creatures in special ways, hopefully creating neat encounters. Those kind of things are much easier when you can use insubstantial instead of asking the DM to make a judgment call on widely disparate monsters.

The trick though is that if you keyword something that isn't all that common, you've created a piece of rules that needs to be know for little advantage. Thankfully insubstantial creatures are a staple of the genre.

 

[Pielorinho]

Thanks for the replies--and I love the idea of putting a skill challenge into combat. Maybe knowledge religion, knowledge arcana, and knowledge dungeoneering could be primaries, followed by a religion, insight, or perception to figure out which of several coffins is the appropriate one? This could allow an athletics or thievery check to open the coffin containing the corpse and a thievery or acrobatics check to place the amulet of binding on the corpse. Intimidate, diplomacy, or bluff could be helpful in getting the spirit to move away from the coffin, making the later checks appropriate.

With that, I might make the spirit extraordinarily tough. I was already planning on giving it a rechargeable power wherein it charges through several enemies inflicting damage on each; this, its main AoE power, would disappear once it was bound.

Ooh, I'm starting to like this.