Integrating an Experienced Player with Newbies

[Samothdm]

I've got a group that consists mainly of newbies who have sub-optimal character choices (the most glaring of which is a Cleric 5/Sorcerer 4, but he recently decided to try to qualify for Mystic Theurge, so at least he'll be a little bit better).

The group consists of:

* The Cleric 5 / Sorcerer 4
* Paladin 2 / Wizard 7 who is more of a lore-type and doesn't cast a lot of offensive spells
* Ranger 8 (missile combat specialist)
* Rogue 9 (disguise-master, but hasn't really focused on much else like trapfinding or sneaking or anything)
* Druid 9 (our newest player and this is her first RPG ever)

I added another player to my group a little over a year ago. He happens to be the DM for two other games in which I'm a player. He made a Paladin 2 / Fighter 4 / Kensai 3 (he qualified for the Kensai levels over the course of playing) who uses a halberd with the Improved Trip feat.

My problem is that I don't seem to be able to strike the proper balance between giving challenges that are hard enough for my newbie-players but that are still challenging enough for him as a veteran. He tends to dominate every combat session, and while the rest of the group seems fine with that, it gets a little old that he is always pretty much the one to take down the main bad guys.

Looking for suggestions for everyone to feel more involved during combat. They are not super-responsive during the non-combat, more RP parts of the sessions (usually), so I'm looking for ways to strike a better balance during the actual combat.

 

[Amal Shukup]

My problem is that I don't seem to be able to strike the proper balance between giving challenges that are hard enough for my newbie-players but that are still challenging enough for him as a veteran.

Is a tough one. I've been both the DM and the 'Veteran' Player in this scenario and can sympathize all around. Couple of thoughts.

1. Co-opt your Veteran. He's a DM as well, so he's likely to be cooperative. Ask him to look for opportunities to 'hold back' a little bit to give the others the opportunity to shine (once they get a taste for it, they'll be more assertive in going for it themselves). Care and Development of New Players is the responsibility of Experienced Players.

2. Optionally, Screw him big time. Any maximized PC is going to have weaknesses in areas they are not optimized for. (My 'Veteran' Sorceror/Fighter got caught without Buffs in a fight vs a massive swarm of Rabid, Evil Blink Dogs. AC (normally nigh on invincible) was for crud. Down I went in round three - awesome opportunity for the relative 'newbies' to 'step up' and shine...)

Paladin/Fighter/Kensai? Take his (undoubtedly boffo) Weapon and or Armor away. Maybe reduce his STR to next to nothing. Use tactics or environments that limit his abilities and options yet favor the others a bit. Occupy him in some quasi-honor driven 'single combat' with a really hard to finish off baddy (how hard? As hard as he needs to be, see?) while pressing the others from other sides. Heck, Just have enemy casters put him in a 'Resilient Hamster Ball' occasionally....

3. Less up front combat and more combat challenges that put a premium on Knowledge/Research/Riddling (Wizard Lore type), buffs/preparation (Cleric/Sorc), infiltration/bluffing (Disguise Rogue), controlling environment/battlefield (Druid), coping with enemies at range (Missile Specialist) etc.

A combat that requires all of that is likely to be memorable...

A'Mal

 

[SweeneyTodd]

Oh, if I'd known the guy in the other thread was the only experienced players with a bunch of newbies, I'd have been even harder on him.

I'd put aside the DM screen and talk to him over a beer or something. Talk to him about what he wants out of the game. If he's in it for the Step on Up feeling of getting recognition for his optimal character build and tactics (and he might be even unconsciously looking for this), then he's got it, period, and you two should work together to find some other way to let his character shine without dominating combat.

Or, you could go the other way, as talked about in the Buffy thread. There are some interesting stories that can be told about a group with one really buff guy and an interesting supporting cast. For that you'd have to give the other PCs more screen time, work in plot hooks that interest their players, and work on that non-combat stuff.

Personally, I'd do the latter. The player sounds like he wants to shine in combat and show off how well he knows the system. Taking that away from him would probably frustrate him.

He's a fellow DM, though, so talk it through with him, and I bet he'll be glad you involved him in the decision (especially if you say something like "Obviously I could just contrive to take away that halberd, but that'd be kind of lame").

 

[Zappo]

I'd engineer a situation where the character is hit where it hurts, and the newbies have to help him. For example, construct a BBEG which is especially resistant to the veteran's abilities and especially powerful against his weak points, but also weak against the newbies' powers.

 

[Kae'Yoss]

It's worse when you have one inexperiencec player who accuses others of extreme powergaming only because he doesn't know a thing about the game. "What, your EOM Spell can heal 20d6 magic? That's insane, I'd have to use all my healing spells for that." - "What about the spell Heal? That easily heals more than that, and you don't have to roll masses of dice" - "....shut up"

 

[fusangite]

Well, in the game I play in on Monday nights, even though others fairly experienced, I am that guy. I play a 10th level druid at the moment who is essentially the combat force. When my animal companion, cohort and I, along with whatever creature I've summoned, go into melee combat, I deal more damage per round than the rest of the party combined, fighter included, even accounting for the round or two I spend magically preparing. And, of course, when creatures flee, there are always Ice Storms and Flame Strikes with which to hit them.

I've never been the big damage-dealer in a party before, except when I have played a sorceror or necromancer so this was an unexpected shift for me into the role of melee star. (I just hadn't thought through how effective a druid could be if well-played until after choosing the class.)

As a result, I've gradually changed how my character acts the rest of the time. When we travel, I travel in Wild Shape now, supposedly for defensive reasons; this means that when things need to be discussed on the road or NPCs approached, I'm out of the loop. People can ask me to cast certain spells for them but I don't get to give them advice. I've also begun playing my 10 Intelligence more aggressively; I step back from discussions about what plans to make and, after being the party's effective spokesperson for my first five levels (with a bunch of diplomacy ranks to show for it), I have now managed to earn a reputation as a dangerously indiscreet character who shouldn't be allowed to talk to NPCs unless they're really on our side. I partly explain this as my character's increasingly ursine lifestyle beginning to inform his nature.

As a result, the party now sees me as a powerful resource they half-control rather than a domineering player. It's not a perfect arrangement but at least the internal power dynamic is nowhere near as screwed-up as it was three or four levels ago.

 

[Gentlegamer]

Why are "newbies" playing 9th level characters? Your problem lies therein.

 

[Pants]

Do we know if they started at 1st level?
That could be part of the problem if they didn't. I'd really hate to introduce someone new to the game at a level above 1 or 2. There's just too much to keep track of, especially if the character is a spellcaster.

 

[Samothdm]

Yeah, I should have qualified that.

They all started at 1st level except for the Druid who joined our game starting around level 5, I think.

I call them "newbies" because, despite playing with 3+ years, they just don't have the same level of experience as the veteran (who, as a DM, really knows the rules forwards and backwards).

I don't necessarily want to penalize the veteran. I want him to have fun, obviously. And, I think part of his strategy is trying to show the noobs "Look what you can do if you really think about how to play your character." I think that's a good thing. But, it just hasn't really turned out that way.

Now, mind you, no one is really complaining (at least, not to me). I've just noticed a general shift in the game toward the rest of the players not really doing as much as they used to during combat because they know eventually the Kensai player is just going to come around and mop everything up.

I'm trying to prepare for down the road just to make sure that everyone has a good time and on one gets bored and, most importantly, no one feels that they are not useful to the group (yeah, I know - double negative).

 

[Corsair]

Even if they did start at level 1, it sounds like they are at least being semi-coddled by the DM. This isn't necessarily a bad thing, but it does mean that they are only really prepared to play in a game with similar players and a coddling DM.

Lets consider what would happen if you put these players with their characters individually in a group full of experienced players:

Cleric 5 / Sorcerer 4: He might be embarrassed by the cleric3/wizard3/MT3 who is casting 3rd level spells in both classes, and will soon have 4th level spells in both.
Paladin 2 / Wizard 7: Might find that in an optimized group, he's terrible in combat compared to a solidly built paladin (like say, a tripping Kensai?) or barbarian, and a worse caster than the straight wizard in the party.
Ranger 8 (missile combat specialist): A character who actually wouldn't be terrible if he joined another group! Sometimes the simplest answers are best.
Rogue 9 (disguise-master): Not a bad character concept if you're in a campaign which suits it. May want to consider Spymaster, but it isn't really necessary. However lack of focus in skills usually means you can't hit DCs expected by modules, traps, and and DMs.
Druid 9 (our newest player and this is her first RPG ever): Imagine how the rest of your party will feel when she accidentally discovers that if she wildshapes, she is not only a better warrior than anyone in your party (with the possible exception of the Kensai) without even trying, and she still has better spellcasting than anyone in the group! At least if she joined a group of experienced players, she wouldn't be mechanically inferior.


The vast majority of these players would likely feel underpowered in a "normal" game of experienced players. You can either tailor the game to them, but doing so gives them different expectations which may mess things up if they deal with more experienced players.