Intelligent Blademaster with Javelin?

[Kraydak]

Actually, you can use a ranged basic attack without using a weapon at all.

Magic Missle with no implement what-so-ever is a basic ranged attack without an accessory. But this is splitting hairs.

Making a ranged basic attack without using a weapon at all is indeed trivial.

Making a ranged basic attack with a ranged weapon without using said ranged weapon as a ranged weapon is still easy, but slightly more delicate, and more germane to the problem at hand.

 

[Doctor Proctor]

Are the qualities 'melee weapon' and 'counts as a ranged weapon' mutually exclusive? What page, exactly, does it state a weapon cannot be both? Without that page, then your -entire- logical base crumbles, because it is all founded on the assumption that a weapon cannot have both traits.

A melee weapon with the heavy thrown trait is just that. A melee weapon. An exception to the rules exists that permits it to be used in place of a ranged weapon. It does -not- say 'becomes a ranged weapon.' It says 'counts as a ranged weapon.' It does NOT lose any prior traits.

In fact, there IS no rule that says a melee weapon cannot be used in ranged attacks. The term 'counts as' does not imply the loss of any traits, but merely that the item in question can be used as something else. That is all.

Again, there's no rule showing what you say either. You're arguing that "melee weapon" is an inherent property of certain objects, regardless of use. As I posted above though, the only definition of melee weapon that I can find defines it as a weapon "which you use to attack foes within reach of the weapon". So therefore, if you're not attacking within the reach of the weapon, it's not a melee weapon anymore. It would be, at best, an improvised ranged weapon if it was light enough, and at worst it would be an impermissible action.

The definition of "reach" is also very clear, and would not extend to the range granted to a thrown weapon when it's counting as a ranged weapon.

It would be if you posted something relevant. You posted stuff about melee attacks. Good for you.

I'm talking about melee weapons being used as ranged weapons. If it stopped being a melee weapon, it also stopped being a thrown weapon so it can't be used in ranged combat. Counted as a ranged weapon in no way means that is stopped being a melee weapon.

Where are you getting that rule from? There's literally nothing in the PHB which indicates this. The rule is that a melee weapon is a weapon that is used to attack foes within reach of the weapon, period. Then, as a separate rule, a melee weapon with the thrown property counts as a ranged weapon when thrown. Since it's being thrown it's attacking a foe out of reach, and therefore is no longer a melee weapon for purposes of determining it's weapon type. Nowhere does it say that this invalidates the thrown property as it's specifically a property of thrown weapons. You would be arguing that the property of thrown weapons invalidates thrown weapons. Obviously this is false, which means that your basic assumption is also false. Ergo, it's not a melee weapon when thrown. Why can you not understand this?

Additionally, it's all in the same paragraph. These aren't separate rules from different sections, it's a single cohesive paragraph outlining the weapons categories. You can't get any more basic than that.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Can you make an two-handed attack with a weapon without it being a two-handed weapon?

Yes.

Sure. But can you make an attack with a two-handed weapon, without using a two-handed weapon?

Can you make an attack with a weapon without using it as a weapon?

Yes.

Can you? If you're using your longsword as an implement, are you making an attack with a weapon, or are you making an attack wiht an implement?

Does a holy avenger weapon continue to be a weapon when you use it as an implement?

Yes.

But is the attack you are making, using the holy avenger as an implement, an 'attack with a weapon'?

I'd maintain that the attack is not an attack with a weapon, it is an attack with an implement.

If the warlock with Light Blade Precision uses his pact blade as an implement for his Eldritch Blast, is the Eldritch Blast an 'attack with a light blade'?

-Hyp.

 

[elecgraystone]

Where are you getting that rule from? There's literally nothing in the PHB which indicates this. The rule is that a melee weapon is a weapon that is used to attack foes within reach of the weapon, period. Then, as a separate rule, a melee weapon with the thrown property counts as a ranged weapon when thrown. Since it's being thrown it's attacking a foe out of reach, and therefore is no longer a melee weapon for purposes of determining it's weapon type.

You mean this? "melee weapons, which you use to attack foes within reach of the weapon" Yes melee weapons are used to hit creatures within reach. When the have the thrown ability they also are used to hit creatures at range. Nothing says it stops being a melee weapon when thrown.

Nowhere does it say that this invalidates the thrown property as it's specifically a property of thrown weapons. You would be arguing that the property of thrown weapons invalidates thrown weapons.

No, I'm arguing that the thrown property is a property of MELEE weapons. Only Melee weapons can have it. If it's not a melee weapon, it can't be a thrown weapon.

Additionally, it's all in the same paragraph. These aren't separate rules from different sections, it's a single cohesive paragraph outlining the weapons categories. You can't get any more basic than that.

Sure you can. I've got a chart with melee weapons on it, Javelin is right there. No where in the rules does it say it moves from that chart. Ever.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Sure you can. I've got a chart with melee weapons on it, Javelin is right there. No where in the rules does it say it moves from that chart. Ever.

But while you're throwing it, you can't use it as a melee weapon...

-Hyp.

 

[DracoSuave]

Sure. But can you make an attack with a two-handed weapon, without using a two-handed weapon?

No. But we're not talking about making an attack with a ranged weapon. We're talking about making a ranged attack with a weapon that -counts- as a ranged weapon which is a -very- subtle difference, but important.

'Counts as' is not the same thing as 'is'. It's just good enough for all intents and purposes.

Can you? If you're using your longsword as an implement, are you making an attack with a weapon, or are you making an attack wiht an implement?



But is the attack you are making, using the holy avenger as an implement, an 'attack with a weapon'?

Weapon Focus says, in fact, you are making an attack with a weapon.

I'd maintain that the attack is not an attack with a weapon, it is an attack with an implement.

Weapon Focus.

If the warlock with Light Blade Precision uses his pact blade as an implement for his Eldritch Blast, is the Eldritch Blast an 'attack with a light blade'?

-Hyp.

Absolutely. Light Blade Precision doesn't mention weapons at all. It meantions 'light blade' which is, for the record, a valid implement type as well as weapon type.

Weapon types can be implement types thanks to the Weapon Focus ruling and swordmages.

Where are you getting that rule from? There's literally nothing in the PHB which indicates this. The rule is that a melee weapon is a weapon that is used to attack foes within reach of the weapon, period.

You're misquoting.

"...melee weapons, which you use to attack foes within reach of the weapon."

That does not preclude other uses of melee weapons. If you use a melee weapon as an implement, it doesn't force the power to attack within the reach of the weapon. If you use a quarterstaff to pry open a stuck door, it doesn't make it not a melee weapon. It's just a melee weapon you've put to an alternate use.

The thrown property is an alternate use for certain melee weapons, as well as a determination for how ammunition is used for that weapon. It is nothing more than that.

Your two Fallacies:
That objects in the game lose their properties when used for alternate purposes. This is false, as proven by multiple rulings in the past. There is no reason to believe that it does not continue.
That objects in the game cannot have two properties that are conceptually 'opposite' when in fact, no mutual exclusivity exists.

The text that matters states a rule as to what melee weapons can do, a rule as to what ranged weapons can't do, and then, GASP, an -exception- to both these rules! An exception in this game!

Powers and properties that care only about melee basic attacks -explicitly say- 'basic melee attack.' Intellegent Blademaster does not follow this pattern so it cannot be automaticly assumed that it means the same thing.

Fact: Javelin is a melee weapon by the definition of Javelin.
Fact: Ranged Basic Attack is a basic attack.

Intellegent Blademaster asks for those two requirements, and both are satisfied. Anything else requires inventing rules that don't exist.

 

[Doctor Proctor]

If you're just going to make up rules then there's no point in even having a discussion. And yes, you're making up rules. "Weapons in all four categories are further categorized as melee weapons, which you use to attack foes within reach of the weapon" is the definition of a melee weapon. Using a weapon to attack foes beyond the reach of a weapon means it's not a melee weapon by the very definition given of what a melee weapon is. To say anything otherwise is simply making up a rule. This is the only instance I've seen that defines what a melee weapon is, nowhere else does it say anything like what you claim.

 

[Wolf88]

Oh god guys we are all arguing semantics here... shouldn't be better to try and figure out "the spirit of the rule" here? Make a judgment call? In my opinion, even if it would not really be unbalanced, Intelligent "Blademaster" shouldn't apply to javelin throwing... Using intelligence to figure how to hit vital or more vulnerable spots in a melee so that even weak blows do mucho damage? Fits! Intelligently flinging javelins? Feels kind of a stretch here...

 

[Hypersmurf]

Weapon types can be implement types thanks to the Weapon Focus ruling and swordmages.

Fair point - I'd misremembered the Wizard of the Spiral Tower entry in the FAQ, thinking it forbade Weapon Focus rather than permitting it.

If one accepts the FAQ ruling that Weapon Focus applies to an implement as correct, then I agree - you can attack with a melee weapon without without using it as a melee weapon, and thus a thrown javelin remains a melee weapon for the purpose of triggering Intelligent Blademaster.


-Hyp.

 

[DracoSuave]

It's a relatively new thing, it used to be the other way pre-swordmage.