Intensify Spell is an Epic WASTE!!!!

[drowdude]

You stop too soon. With this "ruling" Enhance is useful once, if and only if, the base damage is already 20 or less. At that point 1 Empower equals Enhance and since I can double Empower, Enhance just falls into obscurity...

I disagree... Empower does not equal Enhance... Empower uses a % based mechanic, it does not add additional dice as Enhance does... Thus it drives the min/max damage up more...

Also you can take Enhance more than once to increase the cap even further... I think that if you work the numbers correctly you will see that it does remain useful...

...and besides that, I know we are talking about epic levels here... but lets try to keep the discussion within a reasonable scope...

At any rate, it's obvious that we arent going to agree here, and this is quickly becoming an old topic, dontchathink?

 

[drnuncheon]

You stop too soon. With this "ruling" Enhance is useful once, if and only if, the base damage is already 20 or less. At that point 1 Empower equals Enhance and since I can double Empower, Enhance just falls into obscurity...

Um, no. What you're really saying is Empower + Improved Spell Capacity equals Enhance, and it's just not the case, even if your damage cap is 25 dice. If you want to do more damage in a single spell, buy Enhance Spell (and Improved Metamagic) instead of Improved Spell Capacity.

Empower, Imp MM, ISC(x19) - 21 feats, 28th level spell
* Horrid Wilting: 25d8 + 250d8 (20x Empower) = 1237 hp

Empower, Maximize, Enhance, Imp MM (x3), ISC(x15) - 21 feats, 24th level spell
* Horrid Wilting: 280 (35d8 max) + 245d8 = 1382.5 hp

Empower, Maximize, Enhance(x2), Imp MM (x3), ISC(x14) - 23rd level spell
* Horrid Wilting: 360 (45d8 max) + 270d8 = 1575 hp

Empower, Maximize, Enhance(x3), Imp MM (x3), ISC(x13) - 21 feats, 22nd level spell
* Horrid Wilting: 440 (55d8 max) + 275d8 = 1677 hp

Empower, Maximize, Enhance(x4), Imp MM (x3), ISC(x12) - 21 feats, 21st level spell
* Horrid Wilting: 520 (65d8 max) + 260d8 = 1690 hp

Empower, Maximize, Enhance(x5), Imp MM (x3), ISC(x11) - 21 feats, 20th level spell
* Horrid Wilting: 600 (75d8 max) + 225d8 = 1612 hp

As you can see, Enhance does 'peak', but the higher the number of feats you're dealing with, the higher that peak is. I'm sure the guys who wrote the spreadsheets to maximize your power attack damage can help on this one too.

J

 

[Marshall]

At 20 dice cap Empower=Enhance
At 40 dice cap Empower=Max+Enhance. Since 20dx is statistically always equal to 10dx Max.

Enhance could be good for 1 or two uses to get to that 40dice cap, after that youre an idiot for taking it more.

Its a weak feat that doesnt deserve the "Epic" tag.

And Empower is just so over the top that it mostly invalidates all other MM damage feats. If you allow it to stack! Now in a stacking game I'll just take my fighter with Weapon Focus and Weapon Spec. that always hits(I just stack WF until whatever I roll hits) for Infinite Damage(I stack WS until my target is jelly).

"But, Theres no rule in the book that says I only apply those bonuses once per attack!?"

 

[drowdude]

Now in a stacking game I'll just take my fighter with Weapon Focus and Weapon Spec. that always hits(I just stack WF until whatever I roll hits) for Infinite Damage(I stack WS until my target is jelly).

"But, Theres no rule in the book that says I only apply those bonuses once per attack!?"

How incredibly inane... especially when you consider that, yes, there actually are very clear rules regarding stacking for those particular feats....


Methinks you just cannot stand being wrong

 

[drnuncheon]

At 20 dice cap Empower=Enhance
At 40 dice cap Empower=Max+Enhance. Since 20dx is statistically always equal to 10dx Max.

Enhance could be good for 1 or two uses to get to that 40dice cap, after that youre an idiot for taking it more.

You keep saying this (actually, you keep backpedaling on it - it was 'this is never useful' and then 'its good once'...care to keep going?) but now you're not even backing it up with numbers. Did you even *look* at my examples?

I used to think Enhance was useless until I did the math.

You do more damage when you use Enhance and Empower than if you just use Empower.

This is because Enhance boosts the effectiveness of Empower.

Go look at the numbers - using 4 enhance feats is *better* than using Empower at those levels.

And there are no spells with a 40 die cap that I am aware of. (Unless they've aready been enhanced...)

Pick a spell that can be enhanced, empower it however many times you want. Let me know how many feats you used and I'll show you how to beat the damage. Maybe then you'll believe it.

The higher level you go, the more Enhance will be effective. The only place it *isn't* effective is at the low end, when you don't have the slots to use it. That's a no-brainer, it's the same for any metamagic feat.

J

 

[drowdude]

The higher level you go, the more Enhance will be effective. The only place it *isn't* effective is at the low end, when you don't have the slots to use it. That's a no-brainer, it's the same for any metamagic feat.

Actually, I think that if you take a look at my numbers you will see that it can be effective on the "low" end... if you wanna consider 21st + level "low"

 

[drnuncheon]

And Empower is just so over the top that it mostly invalidates all other MM damage feats. If you allow it to stack!

Hmm.

* Maximize: +3 levels to nearly double damage.
* Empower: +4 levels to double damage.

Nothing invalidated there.

* Twin: +4 levels to double damage, require 2nd save. Can be used on spells without a variable numeric effect.
* Empower: +4 levels to double damage. Cannot be used on spells without a variable numeric effect.

Hmm. Twin still does things that Empower doesn't.

* Energy Admixture: +4 levels to double damage, add elemental type.
* Empower: +4 levels to double damage.

Looks like Energy Admixture is equally effective if you're admixing the same kind of energy, potentially more effective if you choose your targets carefully. An empowered fireball won't do anything to an enemy who's immune to fire, but an acid admixed fireball will. So, still no invalidation - Energy Admixture lets you do things that Empower doesn't.

* Intensify Spell: +7 levels to double & maximize (avg fireball: 120 hp)
* Empower: +8 levels to triple damage (avg fireball: 105 hp)

Empower's not even as good.

Now, these get funky when you allow Improved Metamagic, because that lets your Empower get twice the effect. So it looks to me like it's not the stacking that's the problem - because as we see above, they balance out nicely. If you have a problem, direct it to Improved Metamagic.

On the other hand, a second Improved Metamagic on any of the +4 level feats means you are right back to them costing the same - and though you can get a little more damage from Empower because you've got that extra spell level, each of those other feats still has versatility that Empower does not.

J

 

[drnuncheon]

Actually, I think that if you take a look at my numbers you will see that it can be effective on the "low" end... if you wanna consider 21st + level "low"

Well, I was thinking 'low end' as something like:

Delayed Blast Fireball, Empowered (x2) (11th level) - 40d8 dmg
vs.
Delayed Blast Fireball, Enhanced (11th level) - 30d8 dmg

Empower does more damage with 1 fewer feat to boot (since you need Maximize to get Enhance).

To really get the benefit of Enhance you need other damage boosters.

J

 

[drowdude]

Well, I was thinking 'low end' as something like:

Delayed Blast Fireball, Empowered (x2) (11th level) - 40d8 dmg
vs.
Delayed Blast Fireball, Enhanced (11th level) - 30d8 dmg

Empower does more damage with 1 fewer feat to boot (since you need Maximize to get Enhance).

To really get the benefit of Enhance you need other damage boosters.

J

I think of the "low-end" as getting milage out of fireball

 

[Marshall]

You keep saying this (actually, you keep backpedaling on it - it was 'this is never useful' and then 'its good once'...care to keep going?) but now you're not even backing it up with numbers. Did you even *look* at my examples?

"Never Useful" is the way its written in the ELH. None of this affects other MM feats because as written that is a stretch.
"Its good to 40dice" is with the "Clarification". At that point Empower does everything Enhance does at no feat cost.

I used to think Enhance was useless until I did the math.

You do more damage when you use Enhance and Empower than if you just use Empower.

Well, Duh! However youve just spent two feats versus Empower doing almost the same with 1.

This is because Enhance boosts the effectiveness of Empower.

Go look at the numbers - using 4 enhance feats is *better* than using Empower at those levels.

At those levels you'll never reach because the guy concentrating on Empower has been doing that damage for 10-15 levels before you get there...

The higher level you go, the more Enhance will be effective. The only place it *isn't* effective is at the low end, when you don't have the slots to use it. That's a no-brainer, it's the same for any metamagic feat.

If and only if you keep throwing feats at it, and can match the 10 more levels you need to get the full cap. Sorry I can throw a hell of a lot more Empowers into slots youll never see(that can be used for other things) to keep my one feat ahead of your dozen.

I hate to break up this party, but it is turning into just a difference of opinion. I think its worthless, you dont. It aint going to change so lets all move on.