Intensify Spell is an Epic WASTE!!!!

[drnuncheon]

Re: Re: Is anybody actually reading my examples?

At a 40 dice cap.

Where are you getting a spell with a 40 die cap?
Without Enhance, of course.

Footnote 1: Its unclear wether 3 IMM would cause stacking the second Enhance to be 2 slots or 5. The Special section of Enhance indicates that you add 4 levels every stack and then add IMM reduction. Meaning 2xEnhance would be 4+4-3=5 rather than (4-3)+(4-3)=2.

That's really reaching. IMM says "the spell slot modifier of all[/i] your metamagic feats is reduced by one". Enhance says "uses a spell slot 4 levels higher". Thus, IMMx3 makes Enhance #1 go down to 1, Enhance #2 go down to 1, Enhance #3 go down to 1...they *are* all metamagic feats after all.

An example that does not use Improved Metamagic is hardly evidence for a question about Improved Metamagic.

J

 

[drnuncheon]

Re: Re: You're missing something...

Oh yeah back to DrN's math. Your WIZ also has to be 75th,65th,55th etc, etc, Whereas the Empower guy is doing it all at 25th.

Where do you think the Empower guy is getting all the feats for Improved Spell Capacity, Marshall? From the magic feat fairy? He's got to be going up in level, too.

J

 

[Marshall]

Re: Re: Re: Is anybody actually reading my examples?

Where are you getting a spell with a 40 die cap?
Without Enhance, of course.

Uh, Please read where I said Enhance has value to make a 40die cap. Not to mention a 40die Fireball spell would be Either 8 or ninth level. And dont bring up Meteor Swarm if you go by there own guidelines its maybe an 8th high end 7th spell.

That's really reaching. IMM says "the spell slot modifier of all[/i] your metamagic feats is reduced by one". Enhance says "uses a spell slot 4 levels higher". Thus, IMMx3 makes Enhance #1 go down to 1, Enhance #2 go down to 1, Enhance #3 go down to 1...they *are* all metamagic feats after all.

Enhance has a its own stacking mechanic. The Special section just says add 4 more levels, so a double Enhance is +8 levels, NOT 4+4 levels, applying IMM-3 would bring that to 5.

An example that does not use Improved Metamagic is hardly evidence for a question about Improved Metamagic.

The question wasnt about IMM it was about Enhance, if you include IMM the cost of Enhance goes up by another 3 feats.

Where do you think the Empower guy is getting all the feats for Improved Spell Capacity, Marshall? From the magic feat fairy? He's got to be going up in level, too.

Without the extra feat expenditure necessary to buy all those Enhances, hes getting the higher level spell slots much sooner than your guy is getting maxed dice on Enhance.

In your example earlier a Straight WIZ will have 21 Epic feats at about 50th level, thats 25 levels of mega-empower before your Enhance guy compares.

 

[drnuncheon]

Re: Re: Re: Is anybody actually reading my examples?

For example, by the time he's spent 4 feat slots on IMM and Enhance, we've spent 4 slots on ISC, therefore while he is Enhancing and Epowering to 15th level, we are straight Empowering to 19th.

You're right. Enhance isn't a good option at low levels. It's for people who can actually make use of it. You shouldn't run out and buy it at 21st level.

However, let's compare our methods. We'll assume for the sake of fairness that for some reason neither of us has purchased any metamagic feats before hitting 21st level. (Maybe we just really liked Spell Mastery?)

21st level, we both buy Empower. So, we're equal.
23rd level, we both buy Improved Metamagic. Still equal.

For the next *15* feats we buy Improved Spell Capacity. Still equal. And we're dealing metric ***-loads of damage - 918 hp on average. But that's not enough!

I take Maximize, and you snicker, because suddenly you're doing a lot more damage than me. Not a lot, but still: you wonder what I'm smoking.

Next level, I show you what I'm smoking - I take Enhance spell while you take ISC again.

You're stacking 18 empowers onto your Horrid Wilting, so you're doing 250d8 damage: 1125 points on average.

I'm maximizing, enhancing, and stacking a mere 11 empowers onto mine. 280 + 192d8: 1146 damage.

From here on out I will always do more damage than you. Every time you add Improved Spellcasting Capacity, so do I. And every time you add 12.5d8 to your damage, I'm adding 17.5d8. Every level I'm going to do 22.5 points of damage more than you on average. Cumulative.

But that's not enough.

For my next feat, I add Improved Metamagic again. You add Improved Spellcasting Capacity. You're averaging 1181 damage now. But that second Improved Metamagic feat let me stack on 2 more empowers. Now I'm doing 1303 damage. And I will continue to stay ahead of you for the reasons above.

But that's not enough either.

For my next feat, I add Enhance again. You add ISC. You do 1237. I do 1474.

You add ISC. I add IMM. 1294 v 1676.

From here on out it gets even sicker. Every time I hit 10 levels over my damage cap, I add another Enhance - for the same cost you are adding Empowers. Remember, each Empower is a feat you have to spend on Improved Spellcasting. And each Enhance only increases the lead I have.

So yeah, don't take it early. But when it's time to take it, it blows Empower away.

J

 

[Marshall]

Look dude, Use your head!

Enhance at best will add 5d8+80 to every HW. That will never change. Thats 102.5 damage or roughly 22.5 dice. Hey! thats what Empower would give you on a 45 dice cap. What do you know at 45 dice cap Empower exactly equals Enhance. Anything over that and your wasting feats. Period. If we go back to the 40 dice cap Empower gives up 2.5dice or 11 points of damage per application. Hmmm, youre right 11 points is well worth that feat, but wait, since I didn't spend that extra feat on Enhance, I get to add another Empower or 22.5 dice. Oh My! that beats Enhancing over and over again.

Without IMM

HW(25d8) + 2xEnhance(+20d8)[8] + Max(360)[3] + 8xEmpower(+180d8) = 1170 at 35th Level Spell

HW(25d8) + 4xEnhance(+20d8)[16] + Max(520)[3] + 3xEmpower(+97.5d8) = 958 at 33rd Level Spell

Huh! Same feats and the fewer Enhance does more damage! Oh My Gosh!! That wont work with IMM, will it??!!??

HW(25d8) + 2x Enhance(+20d8)[2] + Max(360)[1] + 24xEmpower(+540d8) = 2790 at 35th Level Spell

HW(25d8) + 4xEnhance(+20d8)[2] + Max(520)[1] + 22xEmpower(+715d8) = 3737.5 at 33rd Level Spell

Whoa! I just caught one mistake I'm making(not multiplying that 5dice x #of Empowers) . Makes Enhance somewhat worth while If you combine it with several IMM and IMM actually adds that way.

So its not completely worthless if your 65th level

 

[drnuncheon]

Look dude, Use your head!

Enhance at best will add 5d8+80 to every HW. That will never change. Thats 102.5 damage or roughly 22.5 dice. Hey! thats what Empower would give you on a 45 dice cap. What do you know at 45 dice cap Empower exactly equals Enhance. Anything over that and your wasting feats. Period.

Every time I add another Enhance, it makes every Empower more effective. The 'break point' comes in having enough Improved Spell Capacity to make it worthwhile to swap out a few repetitions of Empower for another Enhance.

Without IMM

HW(25d8) + 2xEnhance(+20d8)[8] + Max(360)[3] + 8xEmpower(+180d8) = 1170 at 35th Level Spell

HW(25d8) + 4xEnhance(+20d8)[16] + Max(520)[3] + 3xEmpower(+97.5d8) = 958 at 33rd Level Spell

Huh! Same feats and the fewer Enhance does more damage! Oh My Gosh!!

Sure. You haven't reached the 'break point'. Your spells are too low a level to benefit from 4 Enhances. But check this out:

HW(25d8) + 2xEnhance(+20d8)[8] + Max(360)[3] + 13xEmpower(+292d8) = 1676 at 45th Level Spell

HW(25d8) + 4xEnhance(+40d8)[16] + Max(520)[3] + 8xEmpower(+260d8) = 1690 at 43rd Level Spell

..and from there on out, 4 enhances is better. (You've both spent 40 feats, which means...hmm, 2 every 3 levels...round about 80th level. But hey, you need to be 65th level to hit the damage cap for 4xEnhance anyway.)

Whoa! I just caught one mistake I'm making(not multiplying that 5dice x #of Empowers) . Makes Enhance somewhat worth while If you combine it with several IMM and IMM actually adds that way.

Even without IMM, it eventually becomes worth it. IMM just makes it happen faster. With 3 levels of Improved Metamagic, 4xEnhance passes up 2xEnhance around about 50th level, except for the fact that you haven't hit the damage cap.

So its not completely worthless if your 65th level

That's why it's an Epic feat. Wussy low-level casters need not apply. You shouldn't even think about taking Enhance until you can hit the new damage cap right off.

J

 

[Anubis]

THE ANSWER

Who needs the Sage when you've got me around?

I'm not coming up with anything TOO brilliant here, though . . .

Guys, with Enhance Spell vs. Intensify Spell vs. Empower Spell, we've been looking at it ALL WRONG! Duh!! This is so silly!!!

We've all said crap about how this combo does this and that combo does that, but we haven't actually APPLIED these theories to realistic circumstances in the game as of yet!

With that, I am hereby acknowledging that I was WRONG, and that Enhance Spell and Intensify Spell are both VERY useful!

Here's why:

First off, as far as raw power goes, *in the end*, Empower Spell DOES still beat Enhance Spell and Intensify Spell EVERY TIME. We're not comparing the feats correctly though.

Yeah, if you use Empower Spell to cast Fireball at a 16th level slot, it's gonna do more than Enhance Spell combined with Intensify Spell . . . What we failed to realize, however, is that the Ehanced and Intensified Fireball, although weaker in power, is only a 5th level spell! In other words, IT'S SUPPOSED TO BE WEAKER!

The best bet is to take ALL THREE FEATS, because then you can deal, at Level 32, 240 damage with that 5th level spell, and ALSO deal 262.5 damage with a 16th level spell! This, however, does question the actual usefulness of EMPOWER SPELL, because the increase in power is marginal at best for a spell slot 11 levels above the other!

Better yet, you can get a 10th level Metero Swarm to do an easy 480 damage using Intensify Spell!

Can you believe we've all been so stupid as to question Enhance Spell and Intensify Spell when we've been comparing 5th level spells to 16th level spells?! Sheesh . . .

Mark this day, folks . . . ANUNIS WAS WRONG!

It just took some actual math using a real character to igure it out!

Keep up with me here . . .

Let's take four Level 35 Wizards. One takes Improved Spell Capacity up to 18th level spells and Improved Metamagic once. The second takes Improved Spell Capacity up to 14th level spells, Enhance Spell, Intensify Spell, and Improved Metamagic three times. The third is the same as the second, except without Intensify Spell and with Improved Spell Capacity up to 15th level. The fourth takes Enhance Spell three times, Inproved Metamagic three times, and Improved Spell Capacity up to 12th level spells.

Here's the math, with each Wizard casting the same level spells along with their most powerful spell, using average damage where applicable:

5th level spell:

Wizard 1: 2x Empowered Fireball; 35 + (17.5 * 2) = 70
Wizard 2: Enhanced Intensified Fireball; 120 * 2 = 240
Wizard 3: Enhanced Empowered Fireball; 70 + (35 * 1) = 105
Wizard 4: 2x Enhanced Fireball; 105

10th level spell:

Wizard 1: 7x Empowered Fireball; 35 + (17.5 * 7) = 157.5
Wizard 2: Intensified Meteor Swarm; 240 * 2 = 480
Wizard 3: Enhanced Empowered Horrid Wilting; 122.5 + (61.25 * 1) = 183.75
Wizard 4: 2x Enhanced Intensified Delayed Blast Fireball; 420

Most Powerful:

Wizard 1: 10x Empowered Horrid Wilting; 87.5 + (43.75 * 10) = 525; 18th level spell
Wizard 2: Enhanced 5x Empowered Horrid Wilting; 122.5 + (61.25 * 5) = 428.75; 14th level spell
Wizard 3: Enhanced 6x Empowered Horrid Wilting; 122.5 + (61.25 * 6) = 490; 15th level
Wizard 4: 3x Enhanced Intensified Fireball; 420; 7th level

As you can see, although Empower Spell wins, it does so only by a very slight margin, and it taks a MUCH higher level spell to do so!

So Enhance Spell and Intensify Spell ARE good choices!

Hope this ends this discussion and helps everybody! Later!

 

[Marshall]

Even without IMM, it eventually becomes worth it. IMM just makes it happen faster. With 3 levels of Improved Metamagic, 4xEnhance passes up 2xEnhance around about 50th level, except for the fact that you haven't hit the damage cap.

Without IMM the "Break Point" is waaayyyy out there, like in the triple digit levels, and you still have to keep a ratio of Empower : Enhance of something like 3:1 to fully take advantage of the new caps.

That's why it's an Epic feat. Wussy low-level casters need not apply. You shouldn't even think about taking Enhance until you can hit the new damage cap right off.

J

Yeah, a Truly EPIC feat. I guess its just my opinion that most people will bore of their characters around 40-50th level and never get to the point where Enhance is truly worth it.

 

[Magius del Cotto]

Well, it depends on your interpretation of what it says for special. From the ELH:

You may gain this feat multiple times. Each time you select this feat, the damage cap increases by 10 dice or 5 dice, as appropriate to the spell, and the enhanced spell takes up a spell slot an additional four levels higher (thus a twice-enhanced fireball would be an 11th level spell).

This could be taken either way. The cost to use it goes up each time you take it ("the enhanced spell takes up an additional four levels higher"), or it stacks normally ("thus a twice enhanced fireball"). Which one is it? Until we get errata or answers, we'll never know (it can be argued both ways equally).

 

[Marshall]

Suffice it to say, that this whole thread points out just how badly worded Enhance spell is in the ELH.