D&D 4E Interesting Data Points With New 4e Players

[Manbearcat]

Just a couple of interesting datapoints to report. May be noise or may be signal. No idea. I just thought it was interesting.

Probably foolishly (as I'm juggling 3 other games right now), I've taken on a new group of players for 4e. The primary reason I took this group on is as a favor to a very good guy who is an old-school player and cannot find a group to fit his rather difficult schedule. I presented him with multiple options of systems and he actually wanted to try out 4e.

So here are the particulars of the demographics:

Player 1 (married to player 2)

- 47 year old male.
- Former Navy Diver and now runs 1st response medical security for multiple mile + obstacle course events ("Tough Mudder", et al) throughout the U.S.
- Lapsed gamer with a 35 + years of experience with RPGs from OD&D thru 3.x to White Wolf to CoC.
- Is very used to strategic, exploratory Gygaxian "skilled play" of classic D&D.
- Primarily GM but has played as well.
- Lots of exosure to board games and card games.
- Loves the High Fantasy genre and all of the sub-genres related to D&D (up to and including the 4e-specific tropes; Points of Light, Big Damn Heroes).
- Is indifferent to complexity in RPGs.

Player 2 (married to player 1)

- 47 year old female.
- Senior, multi-discipline claims adjuster for a large company.
- Has never gamed in her life and never remotely been interested. No exposure to RPGs whatsoever. Primarily doing it as its a passion for player 1.
- Limited exposure to boardgames and even more limited exposure to card games.
- Loves mystery novels and figuring out puzzles.
- Loathes the High Fantasy genre, fairy tales, and really any fantasy in general (She hates The Princess Bride...how is that even possible?).
- Admittedly will get overwhelmed with complexity or multiple vectors.

Player 3

- 30 year old female.
- Chemist. Extremely bright and formally trained in multiple physical sciences, maths, et al.
- Has never played TTRPGs but does have considerable experience with CRPGs (at a very high level of play).
- Plenty of exposure to multiple complex boardgames and card games.
- Loves mystery novels and figuring out puzzles.
- Loves the High Fantasy genre and all of the sub-genres related to D&D (up to and including the 4e-specific tropes; Points of Light, Big Damn Heroes).
- Will thrive under complexity.

Alright. So I've decided that I'm going to teach them 4e piece-meal. I've compartmentalize each aspect and have run them through tutorials entailing:

1) Non-combat conflict resolution (2 social skill challenges and 2 exploration skill challenges). As much as the nuts and bolts of the conflict resolution system, this also includes making sure they understand the concepts of (i) "fail forward", (ii) "telegraphing intent", (iii) the zoomed-out and abstract nature of conflict resolution versus task resolution. (iv) and the nature of subjective environmental DCs that scale with PCs and are represntations of evolving genre conceits as the PCs advance through the tiers of play.

2) What the various system parts actually "mean" and how they interact; Healing Surges, Dailies, Encounter Powers, Hit Points, Experience Points, Rituals, Magic Items/Boons/Alternate Advancement (et al) as PC-side build tools, Quests, Themes, etc.

3) The crunchy, tactical combat mechanics including conceptually understanding (a) forced movement (and terrain/battlefield interaction), (b) intra-party synergy, (c) and stunting.

We're done with our tutorials and I figured I'd post my thoughts on the various players' exposure to 4e.

Player 1:

Extremely excited to play. He's voiced all manner of excitement from actually enjoying the system and the way story emerges from it, to actually getting to play with his wife, to getting to play under a competent GM. He didn't have any problem with the system elements of the game nor the genre expectations.

One thing that was noteworthy was that it took him a bit to get his head around "telegraphing his intent" due to the fact that he is used to trying to hide his intent from GMs (or players trying to hide their intent from him) for positioning of strategic power plays that surprise the GM in a way that advantages the PCs. Along the same lines it took him a bit to get his head around the concept of closed scene-based conflict resolution. He kept wanting to try to zoom-in and interact with every bit and bob in order to figure out how to strategically win the conflict with a fool-proof plan/power. However, after the first few tutorials he got his head around the concepts and very much enjoyed the playstyle.

He didn't have a problem with any of the combat mechanics. Neither martial forced movement nor Encounter Powers nor Dailies were "jarring". He's very much looking forward to it.

Player 2:

She had absolutely no problem understanding conflict resolution conceptually. I would put her in a situation and she understood the mechanics and how things would proceed without much of a problem. Her biggest problem, and a huge blind spot, is lack of exposure to the genre. Quite literally, she couldn't figure out how her archetype was supposed to respond to situations and pressure I put on her. She is going to be an pew-pew Archer Ranger with a dog (point and shoot and send thee dog in) for ease of use. She loves dogs and animals. However, I would put her in Crocodile Dundee and Aragorn types of situations, with pressure specifically meant to challenge the thematic material of her archetype, and she would have no idea how to proceed in a genre-relevant way. She would freeze. It was very difficult for her but I think she will improve with exposure.

I would all but guarantee that if she played Gumshoe or CoC, she would have zero problems due to her exposure to that thematic material.

The combat mechanics were fine for her given that she is playing something with miniimal mental overhead. She wasn't jarred by any of the mechanics; not HPs nor Healing Surges. She was easily able to understand the abstract concept of "heroic staying power".

Player 3:

Wiz-kid. She had no problem with the mechanics nor the concepts nor the genre material. Assimilated everything quickly and with great proficency early on. She is very shy but she easily stepped up and brough about the appropriate genre/archtypical response to thematic adversity placed upon her. She loves the genre material, is very smart, is tactically and strategically driven and oriented (loves a challenge).


Anyway, interesting few data points that I thought I'd share. At least interesting to me as I haven't brought new players into the fold in some time.

 

[Scrivener of Doom]

Interesting signal.

Will you be posting more about this group?

 

[JamesonCourage]

Interesting. Good luck with Player 2! Though Player 1 and Player 3 sound like a lot of fun, I hold no hope for anyone who hates The Princess Bride

 

[Manbearcat]

Interesting signal.

Will you be posting more about this group?

I'll try to throw out some updates (if there is anything of interest) when I have some. Truth be told, I'm unsure how often this group will be playing. The schedules of all of the people involved are difficult and this will be my 2nd 4e game on top of ongoing 13th Age and Dungeon World games. Beyond that, I still try to get in stray one-off games with systems I enjoy so I'm pretty stretched thin (outside of an arduous work schedule and other real life requirements and passions). It wouldn't surprise me if this game was only 3-4 hours every 4-6 weeks.

I'm mostly interested in the widely disparate demographics of this group (generally) and how well each of them assimilate 4e and how much they enjoy themselves (specifically). There are some widely held beliefs about long term D&D players and brand spanking new players and their respective reactions to 4e (both mechanically and genre-wise). So this experience is something of a curiosity to me.

Interesting. Good luck with Player 2! Though Player 1 and Player 3 sound like a lot of fun, I hold no hope for anyone who hates The Princess Bride

Crazy is it not! An interesting poll (in the General section) would be "Do you know someone who dislikes The Princess Bride." This is quite literally the first such person I've met. It was flooring. Its easily one of the most charming (if not the most) movies of all time.

Like you, I'm not sure how well she is going to get on here. Active disdain for a genre is not a recipe for revelry! I'm hoping that it is mostly due to lack of exposure or misinformation. We shall see!

 

[amerigoV]

Player 2 (married to player 1)

- Loathes the High Fantasy genre, fairy tales, and really any fantasy in general (She hates The Princess Bride...how is that even possible?).

Inconceivable!

 

[howandwhy99]

For Player #2, remember D&D is not at all tied to genre. Ask her what she would like to play and what abouot the world she would like to explore. It isn't always myth or fantasy fiction. It can be anything one fantasizes about. Choosing a role to play is usually the only necessary choice normally, but 4e didn't include those beyond combat roles. So you might want to see if the combat system excites her and include that as a frequent option if it does.

 

[MarkB]

Maybe see if Player 2 would prefer more of a fish-out-of-water character - someone out of a more urban or even modern environment who's found themselves dropped into the story via some form of magical accident. That way, the player can find a character voice she's comfortable with, and respond to the outlandish situations accordingly. Experience will allow both the player and character to acclimate to their new environment, and in the meanwhile their unusual perspective can help to liven up the standard tropes.

 

[Scrivener of Doom]

(snip) I'm mostly interested in the widely disparate demographics of this group (generally) and how well each of them assimilate 4e and how much they enjoy themselves (specifically). There are some widely held beliefs about long term D&D players and brand spanking new players and their respective reactions to 4e (both mechanically and genre-wise). So this experience is something of a curiosity to me. (snip)

Me too. (That's in relation to the first sentence.)

Besides the fact that I enjoy your 4E posts, I'm going to be starting a very different group on 4E in the next couple of weeks. My wife, two of her sisters, and the girlfriend of one of her sisters are finally going to play D&D. I mulled over starting them on 13th Age for a while because it's a bit simpler, but their only exposure to RPGs of any sort is the Warcraft III clone Defence of the Ancients (DotA).

I've got a decent collection of minis and preprinted maps and my thinking is that this emphasis on the visual is going to help convert them over. I could be wrong but I am going to try it. And the demographics are interesting, too.

 

[Manbearcat]

Inconceivable!

Oh you wish to surrender to me? Very well, I accept!

For Player #2, remember D&D is not at all tied to genre. Ask her what she would like to play and what abouot the world she would like to explore. It isn't always myth or fantasy fiction. It can be anything one fantasizes about. Choosing a role to play is usually the only necessary choice normally, but 4e didn't include those beyond combat roles. So you might want to see if the combat system excites her and include that as a frequent option if it does.

Theme and background help fill out the rest of the archetype for her here. She's going to have a dog with a mundane version of the Fey Beast Tamer Theme and a Background that rounds out a Crocodile Dundee deal as she can get her head around the modern archetype.

I talked to her about it and we're basically going to play to that as she can get her head around the Ranger aspects of that modern character, so I think we're heeding your advice here (use genre-neutral material that she can engage with).

However...

Maybe see if Player 2 would prefer more of a fish-out-of-water character - someone out of a more urban or even modern environment who's found themselves dropped into the story via some form of magical accident. That way, the player can find a character voice she's comfortable with, and respond to the outlandish situations accordingly. Experience will allow both the player and character to acclimate to their new environment, and in the meanwhile their unusual perspective can help to liven up the standard tropes.

This is brilliant. Are you meaning to pitch to her a modern character that is lost in time? If so, that a fantastic idea. Even if that isn't what you meant, I'm going to do that anyway! She shouldn't have any trouble with that. Thanks!

Me too. (That's in relation to the first sentence.)

Besides the fact that I enjoy your 4E posts, I'm going to be starting a very different group on 4E in the next couple of weeks. My wife, two of her sisters, and the girlfriend of one of her sisters are finally going to play D&D. I mulled over starting them on 13th Age for a while because it's a bit simpler, but their only exposure to RPGs of any sort is the Warcraft III clone Defence of the Ancients (DotA).

I've got a decent collection of minis and preprinted maps and my thinking is that this emphasis on the visual is going to help convert them over. I could be wrong but I am going to try it. And the demographics are interesting, too.

I've found that visual cues, and tokens to play with, are not only great for beginners but also help established players. I've been using pithy phrases for scene elements (like Dungeon World Tags, Fate Aspects, and MHRP Distinctions) written down on a flashcard for many years now and it helps tremendously.

I'm sure this will help your new players. I'm particularly curious about the all-female demographic (both from a player and character perspective). I've played with plenty of females but I'm not sure I've ever come across that dynamic. You should let us know how it goes.

 

[Scrivener of Doom]

(snip) This is brilliant. Are you meaning to pitch to her a modern character that is lost in time? If so, that a fantastic idea. Even if that isn't what you meant, I'm going to do that anyway! She shouldn't have any trouble with that. Thanks! (snip)

That reminds me of the traveller from the time streams background in Mongoose's Elric rules. Very cool.

(snip) I've found that visual cues, and tokens to play with, are not only great for beginners but also help established players. I've been using pithy phrases for scene elements (like Dungeon World Tags, Fate Aspects, and MHRP Distinctions) written down on a flashcard for many years now and it helps tremendously.

I'm sure this will help your new players. I'm particularly curious about the all-female demographic (both from a player and character perspective). I've played with plenty of females but I'm not sure I've ever come across that dynamic. You should let us know how it goes.

That flashcard idea is brilliant. I'll yoink that. Thanks.

Yeah, the demographics will be interesting not just in the context of gender but also in the sense of the fact that this is the Third World. And they come from a very medieval, feudal culture (every political position of consequence in this country of 93 million people is held by a member of about 30 families) so a lot of it will seem normal.

Anyway, I can't wait to start. If it works out I will definitely be posting about it.

But without pictures. My sisters-in-law are pretty and single and that's a bad combination in gaming circles!