eriktheguy
First Post
NOTE: This thread was inspired by another thread by Old Gumphrey.
When intimidate is used to force a surrender, it is made as a skill check against the will defense. This seems weird because skill checks get huge bonuses and do not scale the same way as attacks do. For those that don't know, you can use an intimidate check against every bloodied creature in the fight as a standard action to make them surrender if succeed on the die roll.
Wizards tried to balance it by making intimidate checks to force a surrender against the opponent's defense +10, but it still doesn't work well.
To put it in perspective, a level 4 character(+2) with 20 Cha(+5), trained in intimidate(+5), skill focus intimidate(+3), +2 racial bonus, +2 item bonus, +2 from their background has a +21 attack against the opponent's will + 10. Against many level 4 monters (Will 16), this succeeds on a 5+ (80% success). An 80% chance against each bloodied foe to effectively remove them from the fight is not balanced.
Another problem is the disparity between this character and those that are not min/maxed. A level 4 character (+2) with a decent Cha of 16 (+3) and training (+5) has +10 to intimidate. They need 16+ against the same opponent (25%). Normally min/maxed characters differ from non-min/maxed characters in attack rolls by about 2 or 3 points, not by 11.
Finally intimidate cannot be used on minions as they are never bloodied. This makes little sense as weak, squishy minions should be the first ones to run away.
Skills should not be used as attacks against defenses. It is not balanced. They scale differently. Many circumstances, feats etc offer large bonuses to skill checks that would never be added to attack roles by any similar balanced circumstances.
I would argue that the developers did not originally balance the intimidate system very well, and that the intimidate rules are not well thought out. Many players have dailies that can hit a group of baddies with a condition for a limited time, but here we have a skill check can remove several bloodied foes from combat.
I suggest reworking intimidate in combat as attack. This would cause it to scale and balance better by level, make it accessible to non-min/maxed characters, and make its effects clearer.
I think a target roll of 16+ (25%) to force a bloodied enemy to surrender is fair for a character trained in the skill, and with a decent starting ability score (16). Such a character has about a +5 bonus on this check at level 1, and monsters tend to have defenses around 13 at level 1, if the DMG is to be believed. Thus a fair target DC is the Will defense + 8. Hitting the targets Will+8 forces a surrender if they are bloodied or a minion. Hitting their will defense, but not their will +8 imposes a morale penalty even if they are not bloodied.
Any player or monster may use the following at-will powers.
Intimidate foes: at-will, standard action, fear
Close Burst 5
Target: each enemy in burst that can perceive you
Attack: Cha or Str vs Will
Hit: The target is demoralized (save ends). In addition, if you hit the target's will defense +8, and the target is a minion or bloodied, the target is surrendered. While an enemy is under any affect caused by this attack, they are intimidated by you.
Miss: You gain a -2 penalty to any further attempts to intimidate the target until the end of the encounter. This penalty stacks.
Special: You gain a +2 bonus to the attack if you are trained in intimidate, and a further +1 for taking skill focus intimidate. If you are wearing a magic item that gives a bonus to intimidate, you gain an enhancement bonus to this attack roll according to the level of the item as though it were a magic weapon or implement (+1 for level 1-5, +2 for level 6-10 etc). Elite monsters gain a +4 bonus to their defense for this and solos gain a +8 bonus.
Direct surrendered: at-will, minor action, fear
Close burst 10
Target: One enemy in burst who is surrendered and intimidated by you.
Effect: Rather than flee on their turn, the monster will take one move action that you dictate, such as staying put, sitting down, moving aside, or going and sitting in the parties wagon. If the move action puts them in danger, such as moving towards a rampaging dragon, off a cliff, or past allies who provoke opportunity attacks, the effect fails and the target is no longer surrendered.
Special: You must be able to communicate with the target effectively. If it does not speak your language you can only make basic commands such as 'stay', 'sit', 'run'. If the target is of anamal or particularly alien intelligence, it might fail to understand your directions and simply continue fleeing.
New status conditions:
Demoralized: You suffer a -2 penalty to attack rolls, skill checks, passive perception, and passive insight. You grant combat advantage to anyone who is intimidating you.
Surrendered: You are no longer a threat to enemies in this combat. You will attempt to flee on your turn and cannot threaten adjacent squares or attack foes. If at any time you are not a minion or bloodied, you are no longer surrendered. If anyone who is intimidating you attacks you, you are no longer surrendered. If an effect causes you to no longer be surrendered, you are demoralized instead. If you are cornered and cannot flee, you remain in place. If you are cornered and attacked, you are no longer surrendered.
Note that if you intimidate someone, your allies can attack them and they will still try to flee, but if you attack them they are no longer surrendered.
Under this system, a level 4 (+2) character with 20 Cha(+5), trained(+2), skill focus(+1), and a Circlet of Authority (level 7 = +2) would get +12 to this attack. A level 4 enemy with a Will defense of 12+level = 16 would be intimidated on a roll of 4 or higher or would surrender on 12 or higher. A level 4 (+2) character with 18 Cha (+4), trained (+2) would have +8 to hit, intimidating on a roll of 8 or higher, and forcing surrender on 16 or higher. To me, this seems more balanced. Min/maxing will increase your ability to intimidate, but not to ridiculous levels. Even if you don't min/max you will still be able to intimidate.
Under this system, racial/background bonuses do not affect the attack. I did this because racial bonuses never give a character an outright bonus to an attack roll, and because any race that gains a bonus to intimidate already has an attribute bonus for Str or Cha anyways. These races also have special feats that help them to be more intimidating below.
To help flesh out and balance using intimidate as an attack, I suggest letting diplomacy be used to cure demoralization/surrendering like a heal check.
Inspire allies
Action: Standard
DC: 15 + 1/2 level of intimidating foe
Success: Each ally within 5 squares can make a saving throw against being demoralized/surrendered. They gain a +2 bonus to the saving throw.
Failure: You may retry as a standard action.
Special: Monsters with the Leader role can make this check as though they were trained in diplomacy, and may do so once per turn as a free action.
This way, if your players get intimidated by the monsters, they have an option not to be TPK'ed. It also encourages the players to take out the leader of the monsters if they want to intimidate the lesser monsters into surrendering, which makes for interesting strategy and realistic gameplay.
I also made a few feats to mesh with the intimidate attack, some of which focus on intimidating races.
Heroic Tier Feats
Brave leader
Prerequisite: Trained in diplomacy
Effect: You can use Inspire Allies once per round as a minor action. When you Inspire Allies you affect all allies within 8 squares. Furthermore, you gain a +1 feat bonus to diplomacy checks. This bonus stacks with any granted by the skill focus feat.
Heart of Bahumnat
Prerequisite: Dragonborn or Cha 13+
Effect: Whenever you or an adjacent ally become demoralized or surrendered, they may immediately make a saving throw to end the effect. Furthermore you gain a +1 feat bonus to diplomacy checks. This bonus stacks with any bonus from the skill focus feat.
Fearsome intimidation
Prerequisite: Trained in intimidate
Effect: When you use intimidate foes in combat, increase the size of the burst by 3. You gain a +1 feat bonus to intimidate checks. This bonus stacks with any bonus granted by the feat skill focus.
Horrific Wrath
Prerequisite: Teifling, Infernal Wrath racial power, trained in intimidate
Effect: When an attack you hit with deals additional damage from your Infernal Wrath encounter power, you may use the Intimidate Foes power against them as a free action.
Terrifying Savagery
Prerequisite: Half-Orc, Savage Assault racial power, trained in intimidate
Effect: When you deal damage to an enemy with your Savage Assault racial power, you may use the Intimidate Foes power against them as a free action.
EDITS: Increased defense bonus for elites/solos. Added brave leader feat. Changed DC for Inspire Allies. Changed demoralized and surrendered to conditions. Clarified that surrendered targets will flee unless direct otherwise. Made direct surrendered a power as a minor action. Added heart of Bahumat feat.
When intimidate is used to force a surrender, it is made as a skill check against the will defense. This seems weird because skill checks get huge bonuses and do not scale the same way as attacks do. For those that don't know, you can use an intimidate check against every bloodied creature in the fight as a standard action to make them surrender if succeed on the die roll.
Wizards tried to balance it by making intimidate checks to force a surrender against the opponent's defense +10, but it still doesn't work well.
To put it in perspective, a level 4 character(+2) with 20 Cha(+5), trained in intimidate(+5), skill focus intimidate(+3), +2 racial bonus, +2 item bonus, +2 from their background has a +21 attack against the opponent's will + 10. Against many level 4 monters (Will 16), this succeeds on a 5+ (80% success). An 80% chance against each bloodied foe to effectively remove them from the fight is not balanced.
Another problem is the disparity between this character and those that are not min/maxed. A level 4 character (+2) with a decent Cha of 16 (+3) and training (+5) has +10 to intimidate. They need 16+ against the same opponent (25%). Normally min/maxed characters differ from non-min/maxed characters in attack rolls by about 2 or 3 points, not by 11.
Finally intimidate cannot be used on minions as they are never bloodied. This makes little sense as weak, squishy minions should be the first ones to run away.
Skills should not be used as attacks against defenses. It is not balanced. They scale differently. Many circumstances, feats etc offer large bonuses to skill checks that would never be added to attack roles by any similar balanced circumstances.
I would argue that the developers did not originally balance the intimidate system very well, and that the intimidate rules are not well thought out. Many players have dailies that can hit a group of baddies with a condition for a limited time, but here we have a skill check can remove several bloodied foes from combat.
I suggest reworking intimidate in combat as attack. This would cause it to scale and balance better by level, make it accessible to non-min/maxed characters, and make its effects clearer.
I think a target roll of 16+ (25%) to force a bloodied enemy to surrender is fair for a character trained in the skill, and with a decent starting ability score (16). Such a character has about a +5 bonus on this check at level 1, and monsters tend to have defenses around 13 at level 1, if the DMG is to be believed. Thus a fair target DC is the Will defense + 8. Hitting the targets Will+8 forces a surrender if they are bloodied or a minion. Hitting their will defense, but not their will +8 imposes a morale penalty even if they are not bloodied.
Any player or monster may use the following at-will powers.
Intimidate foes: at-will, standard action, fear
Close Burst 5
Target: each enemy in burst that can perceive you
Attack: Cha or Str vs Will
Hit: The target is demoralized (save ends). In addition, if you hit the target's will defense +8, and the target is a minion or bloodied, the target is surrendered. While an enemy is under any affect caused by this attack, they are intimidated by you.
Miss: You gain a -2 penalty to any further attempts to intimidate the target until the end of the encounter. This penalty stacks.
Special: You gain a +2 bonus to the attack if you are trained in intimidate, and a further +1 for taking skill focus intimidate. If you are wearing a magic item that gives a bonus to intimidate, you gain an enhancement bonus to this attack roll according to the level of the item as though it were a magic weapon or implement (+1 for level 1-5, +2 for level 6-10 etc). Elite monsters gain a +4 bonus to their defense for this and solos gain a +8 bonus.
Direct surrendered: at-will, minor action, fear
Close burst 10
Target: One enemy in burst who is surrendered and intimidated by you.
Effect: Rather than flee on their turn, the monster will take one move action that you dictate, such as staying put, sitting down, moving aside, or going and sitting in the parties wagon. If the move action puts them in danger, such as moving towards a rampaging dragon, off a cliff, or past allies who provoke opportunity attacks, the effect fails and the target is no longer surrendered.
Special: You must be able to communicate with the target effectively. If it does not speak your language you can only make basic commands such as 'stay', 'sit', 'run'. If the target is of anamal or particularly alien intelligence, it might fail to understand your directions and simply continue fleeing.
New status conditions:
Demoralized: You suffer a -2 penalty to attack rolls, skill checks, passive perception, and passive insight. You grant combat advantage to anyone who is intimidating you.
Surrendered: You are no longer a threat to enemies in this combat. You will attempt to flee on your turn and cannot threaten adjacent squares or attack foes. If at any time you are not a minion or bloodied, you are no longer surrendered. If anyone who is intimidating you attacks you, you are no longer surrendered. If an effect causes you to no longer be surrendered, you are demoralized instead. If you are cornered and cannot flee, you remain in place. If you are cornered and attacked, you are no longer surrendered.
Note that if you intimidate someone, your allies can attack them and they will still try to flee, but if you attack them they are no longer surrendered.
Under this system, a level 4 (+2) character with 20 Cha(+5), trained(+2), skill focus(+1), and a Circlet of Authority (level 7 = +2) would get +12 to this attack. A level 4 enemy with a Will defense of 12+level = 16 would be intimidated on a roll of 4 or higher or would surrender on 12 or higher. A level 4 (+2) character with 18 Cha (+4), trained (+2) would have +8 to hit, intimidating on a roll of 8 or higher, and forcing surrender on 16 or higher. To me, this seems more balanced. Min/maxing will increase your ability to intimidate, but not to ridiculous levels. Even if you don't min/max you will still be able to intimidate.
Under this system, racial/background bonuses do not affect the attack. I did this because racial bonuses never give a character an outright bonus to an attack roll, and because any race that gains a bonus to intimidate already has an attribute bonus for Str or Cha anyways. These races also have special feats that help them to be more intimidating below.
To help flesh out and balance using intimidate as an attack, I suggest letting diplomacy be used to cure demoralization/surrendering like a heal check.
Inspire allies
Action: Standard
DC: 15 + 1/2 level of intimidating foe
Success: Each ally within 5 squares can make a saving throw against being demoralized/surrendered. They gain a +2 bonus to the saving throw.
Failure: You may retry as a standard action.
Special: Monsters with the Leader role can make this check as though they were trained in diplomacy, and may do so once per turn as a free action.
This way, if your players get intimidated by the monsters, they have an option not to be TPK'ed. It also encourages the players to take out the leader of the monsters if they want to intimidate the lesser monsters into surrendering, which makes for interesting strategy and realistic gameplay.
I also made a few feats to mesh with the intimidate attack, some of which focus on intimidating races.
Heroic Tier Feats
Brave leader
Prerequisite: Trained in diplomacy
Effect: You can use Inspire Allies once per round as a minor action. When you Inspire Allies you affect all allies within 8 squares. Furthermore, you gain a +1 feat bonus to diplomacy checks. This bonus stacks with any granted by the skill focus feat.
Heart of Bahumnat
Prerequisite: Dragonborn or Cha 13+
Effect: Whenever you or an adjacent ally become demoralized or surrendered, they may immediately make a saving throw to end the effect. Furthermore you gain a +1 feat bonus to diplomacy checks. This bonus stacks with any bonus from the skill focus feat.
Fearsome intimidation
Prerequisite: Trained in intimidate
Effect: When you use intimidate foes in combat, increase the size of the burst by 3. You gain a +1 feat bonus to intimidate checks. This bonus stacks with any bonus granted by the feat skill focus.
Horrific Wrath
Prerequisite: Teifling, Infernal Wrath racial power, trained in intimidate
Effect: When an attack you hit with deals additional damage from your Infernal Wrath encounter power, you may use the Intimidate Foes power against them as a free action.
Terrifying Savagery
Prerequisite: Half-Orc, Savage Assault racial power, trained in intimidate
Effect: When you deal damage to an enemy with your Savage Assault racial power, you may use the Intimidate Foes power against them as a free action.
EDITS: Increased defense bonus for elites/solos. Added brave leader feat. Changed DC for Inspire Allies. Changed demoralized and surrendered to conditions. Clarified that surrendered targets will flee unless direct otherwise. Made direct surrendered a power as a minor action. Added heart of Bahumat feat.
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