Intimidate with STR

[Shard O'Glase]

Str can be intimidating - so can magic, or a greataxe or many other things, and these things can and should apply circumstance bonuses where appropriate, but this doesn't negate the need for charisma to apply these tools effectively.

Yeah but str is naturally intimidating. Sure chr can be sure magic can be sure interviews can be, but str is the one stat that on its own doing nothing is intimidating. People don't step aside for the charismatic guy walking down the street they step aside for the big guy.

 

[Humanophile]

The "Str should be an innate modifier because, well, the big guy is pretty scary" side of the arguement falls flat when we think for a moment all the things that Str can mean; the high Str guy could be wiry, or just have powerful magic on his side. Give me a properly epic belt of giant strength, I can heft boulders... but I'd still look like dorky me, not likely to make a bunch of Hell's Angels back away. (At least until I take some action to demonstrate my incredible strength, thus earning me a hefty circumstance bonus on my Intimidate check.) Exceptionally big (or little) characters already have a built-in modifier to their intimidate checks (which can be a little silly, since the halfling mafia don's intimidation is far less in your face and physical prowess based), and exceptionally large characters should reflect their intimidating size with already existing traits.

But that said, Reapersaurus is right; this debate has been going on for a long time. People are going to stick to their opinions regardless, it's kind of silly to expect a conversion after the first round of evidence is rebuffed. Besides, Shader made his position clear, he was just looking for a reference. (To justify a position I disagree with, yes, but who among us can't reference rules that lead to situations we find silly?) If you're looking for a Str-based Intimidate rationalization, intimidating in combat takes a standard action; surely enough time to make some impressive show of force in most environments. I'll keep playing my way, but intimidating in combat is sub-optimal enough I'm not going to lose any sleep over it.

And on that note, Str-based Intimidate really doesn't make minning Cha that much less painless for the fighter/barbarian; the kind of person who's going to min Cha is clearly going to prefer attacking over intimidating in combat, and out-of-combat Charisma has its own flaws that make it sub-optimal compared to Diplomacy. Cha-minned tanks tend to let someone else do the talking anyways, or play in "just role-play it" games where the character's ability is absolutely negligible anyways.

 

[Shader]

The "Str should be an innate modifier because, well, the big guy is pretty scary" side of the arguement falls flat when we think for a moment all the things that Str can mean; the high Str guy could be wiry, or just have powerful magic on his side. Give me a properly epic belt of giant strength, I can heft boulders... but I'd still look like dorky me, not likely to make a bunch of Hell's Angels back away. (At least until I take some action to demonstrate my incredible strength, thus earning me a hefty circumstance bonus on my Intimidate check.) Exceptionally big (or little) characters already have a built-in modifier to their intimidate checks (which can be a little silly, since the halfling mafia don's intimidation is far less in your face and physical prowess based), and exceptionally large characters should reflect their intimidating size with already existing traits.

And on that note, Str-based Intimidate really doesn't make minning Cha that much less painless for the fighter/barbarian; the kind of person who's going to min Cha is clearly going to prefer attacking over intimidating in combat, and out-of-combat Charisma has its own flaws that make it sub-optimal compared to Diplomacy. Cha-minned tanks tend to let someone else do the talking anyways, or play in "just role-play it" games where the character's ability is absolutely negligible anyways.

You've also raised another point I was trying, indirectly, to make. I wouldn't want to stop using CHA for Intimidate, just have the option of using another stat if appropriate. I would quite like to have a Fighter type who is charismatic, handsome and smooth, while at the same time having a strong, oppressive physique that can intimidate the weaker types. If I wanted to apply STR to Intimidate for those purposes, and leave the CHA for his looks, I think that should be applicable under those rules.

I could be way off, and am prepared to accept that. However in this case, rather than open a can of worms - because I know it's a sensitive subject - I just wanted the reference Still, it's an interesting discussion.

 

[DreamChaser]

It's been the same arguments for over 3 years now.

You're welcome to waste time on it, but the same things are said every time.

Well then why are you posting on this thread then? Is it trolling, voice of doom, or simple snarkiness? Seems like you think it's a huge waste of time...so stop wasting your and our time.

DC

 

[reapersaurus]

DC -
You obviously aren't thinking of the service provided by me pointing out the ancientness of this debate:

Some people who read this thread may not be aware (in fact, they probably wouldn't be) of the long history this argument has, and the entrenched viewpoints.

Given that most of the responses nowadays (years into the argument) consistently come from the "pure-CHA" side, I feel that me pointing out that there are 2 established camps that have long chosen sides could help someone reading this aspect of the rules for the first time.

It gives them a context that unless pointed out, they wouldn't otherwise have.

 

[Falconnan]

You're all insane!
The way we play--

1. Strength can be used to intimidate, but only if you have a way to demonstrate your strength. For instance, the big bad fighter picking up the heavy wooden chair and crushing it between his hands might do the trick. In this case, you the Intimidate check would be as normal, but with your Strength bonus as a modifier.
2. Magic can also be used to intimidate, but also requires a demonstration. We generally allow the wizard or cleric a bonus equal to the spell level, with spectacular spells, or illusions thereof, up to double the level of the spell.
3. We subtract the level of the character being intimidated from the bonus these two options provide. In other words, big bad wizard may well be big and bad, but the almost equally big and bad fighter he wants to intimidate will not be impressed.

A failed intimidate check will generally worsen an NPC's attitude one to two steps. However, an arrogant NPC might be impressed by the PC's "spunk". It depends on whether it will help the game.

 

[Shader]

3. We subtract the level of the character being intimidated from the bonus these two options provide. In other words, big bad wizard may well be big and bad, but the almost equally big and bad fighter he wants to intimidate will not be impressed.

A failed intimidate check will generally worsen an NPC's attitude one to two steps. However, an arrogant NPC might be impressed by the PC's "spunk". It depends on whether it will help the game.

I quite like this method, thanks!

 

[Bauglir]

I like it too - do you apply this level mod to normal cha based intimidation too?

 

[DreamChaser]

You're all insane!
The way we play--

1. Strength can be used to intimidate, but only if you have a way to demonstrate your strength. For instance, the big bad fighter picking up the heavy wooden chair and crushing it between his hands might do the trick. In this case, you the Intimidate check would be as normal, but with your Strength bonus as a modifier.
2. Magic can also be used to intimidate, but also requires a demonstration. We generally allow the wizard or cleric a bonus equal to the spell level, with spectacular spells, or illusions thereof, up to double the level of the spell.
3. We subtract the level of the character being intimidated from the bonus these two options provide. In other words, big bad wizard may well be big and bad, but the almost equally big and bad fighter he wants to intimidate will not be impressed.

A failed intimidate check will generally worsen an NPC's attitude one to two steps. However, an arrogant NPC might be impressed by the PC's "spunk". It depends on whether it will help the game.

I like this way as well. The only thing I would change is that I would always apply Cha and then the special bonus (Str, spell level, etc)...especially since the target's level is going to get subtracted, the extra umph makes it worth while.

 

[Henry Hankovich]

Here's where I stand on the issue.

I think the main thing is, people confuse "being intimidating" with "Intimidate," so to speak. Understandable, given that I'm using the same word twice. Here's the difference:

"Being intimidating" just means you're making someone or something afraid of you. Not much to it--you can do it to puppies and small children, no matter how weak or powerless you are. That's what most people are referring to when they talk about how a really strong guy "can be intimidating." So can an angry mob with pitchforks and torches, too. Or a rattlesnake. Or a really high cliff.

Intimidate, however, as a D&D skill, is a rather advanced social skill. You're not just making the guy crap his pants in sudden fear--any monster can do that. What you're trying to do is elicit a very specific and persistant response from a person, using fear as the stimulus. You have to be good enough at Intimidating that the person will continue carrying out your wish, even when he's out of arm's reach. The effect is somewhat like a light version of the charm person spell, wherein the person will act as though he is your friend, or is friendly toward you. The same with intimidate--but instead of 'feeling' that he's your friend, he just knows that he has to -act- as your friend, or face the consequences.

The trick, though, is that there is a very specific response you want from the person, such as the answer to where the Tome of Unholy Puppykicking is hidden. Now, if you just make the person afraid, you might get all sorts of responses. He might soil his pants and start blubbering incoherently. He might run out the door. He might start yelling for his bodyguard in the next room. He might cast Fireball. Or--worst of all--he might lie to you, and send you walking toward the nearest dragon's den instead. You've made him afraid, but without the social ability to manipulate that fear--or to figure out whether you've really accomplished what you wanted to do--you're not really any closer to your goal.

Now, being strong--being able to threaten someone with physical violence--is one threat to use. But it's not the only one, and certainly not the best. So a high-STR character would probably use threats of physical violence as the 'stick' in his Intimidation technique. But a halfling rogue might imply, instead, that if the guy doesn't give up the info, he might someday wake up to find his barn burnt down and his daughter pregnant. Or a LG paladin might imply that if the person doesn't comply, the Church will be "very disappointed" in him, having serious consequences to his social status. They're all using whatever abilities or traits they possess, in forming their threats--but actually getting the response they want out of the person, is a social skill. A CHA-based check.

Certainly, it's well and good to give circumstance bonuses for an appropriate display of strength, if that's your preferred method. But there's no reason to unduly reward high-STR characters (by making STR an acceptable substitute in the check itself), as opposed to potentially intimidating displays from high DEX characters ("I throw a dagger into his chair, inches away from his crotch"), or high-INT characters ("wait, wait, what's this in my pocket...oh, I see, it's a FIREBALL spell..."), in Intimidation checks. There's no sense in swapping the core ability for the check, when the game already lets you use your strength (or dexterity, or intelligence, or whatever) to benefit the Intimidate check using a "favorable circumstances" bonus.

So, I think the best way to treat it is, Intimidate itself remains a CHA-based skill--because successfully using fear to your advantage requires a bit of deft social handling. But STR, along with any other attribute, can potentially be used to gain "favorable circumstances." This accounts for the fact that physical strength is not going to be universally fear-inspiring, any more than any other personal attribute might be. The hill giant isn't going to be impressed by the widdle human smashing a widdle table over his head, any more than the archmage is going to be too fearful of your l33t fireball.

Of course, this requires players to actually -think- about how to create favorable circumstances, aside from simply looking for the nearest table to smash over their heads. Which is probably the core of the issue.