D&D (2024) Intimidation vs Morale

[Pauln6]

Just playtesting last week. Our Barbarian was last man standing and was chopping his way through goblins and when half were down he tried to Intimidate the remainder to retreat.

I went back to the old goblin stats from 2e and took their morale score from the compendium - average 10 - and used that as a base. It worked.

I have gone back to 1e Dnd for a closer look at how they did it and it looks quite fiddly. I was thinking of ways to formalise it as it feels like this is the martial characters version of sleep or fear to take multiple enemies out of the fight.

I was thinking of making it doable once only each time certain markers are hit:

Single target reaches half hp
Single or multiple targets - Leader/spell-caster unconscious or killed
Single or multiple targets - Half your allies unconscious or killed

Then you would have circumstantial modifiers to the base morale score/intimidation DC based on the DMG e.g.

+5 if leader alive/conscious/has not deserted
+2 if you outnumber opponents by 2 to 1 or more
+1 for each enemy slain or unconscious
-2 if half allies slain or deserted
-2 if non magical creatures face obvious magic and they have no spell-caster

DMG also suggests you could check every round if clearly outmatched but that's very DM subjective. Does anyone have any thoughts on the best way to implement inside the skill system so the numbers stack up.

Checks in combat have disadvantage.

 

[Andvari]

I use the BECMI version of morale checks. Each monster has a morale score from 2-12. Roll 2d6 when appropriate. If you beat the monster's morale, it seeks to avoid further combat. I usually roll when the PCs first kill something, when half of them are dead and when only one monster is left.

Targeting leaders can be a good idea in some cases. Hobgoblins for example have 10 morale while their leader is alive, but only 8 when he's dead. But generally there are no "modifiers" to keep track of.

 

[Pauln6]

Just playtesting last week. Our Barbarian was last man standing and was chopping his way through goblins and when half were down he tried to Intimidate the remainder to retreat.

I went back to the old goblin stats from 2e and took their morale score from the compendium - average 10 - and used that as a base. It worked.

I have gone back to 1e Dnd for a closer look at how they did it and it looks quite fiddly. I was thinking of ways to formalise it as it feels like this is the martial characters version of sleep or fear to take multiple enemies out of the fight.

I was thinking of making it doable once only each time certain markers are hit:

Single target reaches half hp
Single or multiple targets - Leader/spell-caster unconscious or killed
Single or multiple targets - Half your allies unconscious or killed

Then you would have circumstantial modifiers to the base morale score/intimidation DC based on the DMG e.g.

+5 if leader alive/conscious/has not deserted
+2 if you outnumber opponents by 2 to 1 or more
+1 for each enemy slain or unconscious
-2 if half allies slain or deserted
-2 if non magical creatures face obvious magic and they have no spell-caster

DMG also suggests you could check every round if clearly outmatched but that's very DM subjective. Does anyone have any thoughts on the best way to implement inside the skill system so the numbers stack up.

Checks in combat have disadvantage.

I use the BECMI version of morale checks. Each monster has a morale score from 2-12. Roll 2d6 when appropriate. If you beat the monster's morale, it seeks to avoid further combat. I usually roll when the PCs first kill something, when half of them are dead and when only one monster is left.

Targeting leaders can be a good idea in some cases. Hobgoblins for example have 10 morale while their leader is alive, but only 8 when he's dead. But generally there are no "modifiers" to keep track of.

Yes, BECMI used 2d6, AD&D D%, and 2e 2d10. I guess the latter is closest to 5e if you want to incorporate it into DC and the modifiers after that can reduce that score.

If Morale is used to set DC maybe an easier way is to take the CR of the encounter less the average party level and add that to the Morale score.

I feel that as it stands, the Morale score is too high to add as a modifier to an opposed check.

Maybe a simpler way is to give monsters advantage while their leader is alive, so disadvantage for intimidation check.

 

[James Gasik]

This is a total aside, but the thread reminded me of it. I play in a long-running 2e game, and as the player base has dwindled over the years, the DM has relied more and more on morale checks to prevent TPK's (while I have mostly relied more and more on inflated Con scores to gain more hit points to do the same).

The problem with randomly rolled morale checks, I've noticed, is that sometimes, even when you have an enemy on the ropes, you can still get successes. My DM has commented on how I have the worst luck in this regard; even though some of my characters have reputations that are known far and wide, I seem to be some kind of statistical outlier, because 75% of the time, when the DM goes to roll the check (and I know he's not fudging because he always rolls openly), the result is low single-digits and the fight continues!

It's gotten to the point that, as much as he hates it (because he really like letting the dice decide things), he sometimes has to overrule the results.

I'm sure somewhere out there, there's a guy who, even if his character isn't that threatening, has powerful foes retreat from him all the time, lol.

 

[Pauln6]

This is a total aside, but the thread reminded me of it. I play in a long-running 2e game, and as the player base has dwindled over the years, the DM has relied more and more on morale checks to prevent TPK's (while I have mostly relied more and more on inflated Con scores to gain more hit points to do the same).

The problem with randomly rolled morale checks, I've noticed, is that sometimes, even when you have an enemy on the ropes, you can still get successes. My DM has commented on how I have the worst luck in this regard; even though some of my characters have reputations that are known far and wide, I seem to be some kind of statistical outlier, because 75% of the time, when the DM goes to roll the check (and I know he's not fudging because he always rolls openly), the result is low single-digits and the fight continues!

It's gotten to the point that, as much as he hates it (because he really like letting the dice decide things), he sometimes has to overrule the results.

I'm sure somewhere out there, there's a guy who, even if his character isn't that threatening, has powerful foes retreat from him all the time, lol.

Yeah at the moment if the fight looks inevitable I have the villains make a run for it. What's interesting is that AD&D has fighting withdrawal (disengage?), withdrawal (dodge?), and flee in panic dependent on level of success.

 

[Andvari]

I used DCs and monsters “saving” against it with modifiers for various circumstances at first but found just rolling 2d6 was better.

 

[Pauln6]

Found the 2e modifiers:

Table 49: Morale Ratings

Creature Type Morale

Non-intelligent monster 18

Animal, normal and peaceful 3

Animal, normal predator 7

Animal intelligence monster 12

Semi-intelligent monster 11

Low intelligence 10

Average 0-level human 7

Mobs 9

Militia 10

Green or disorganized troops 11

Regular soldiers 12

Elite soldiers 14

Hirelings 12

Henchmen 15



Table 50: Situational Modifiers

Situation Modifier

Abandoned by friends -6

Creature lost 25% of its hp* -2

Creature lost 50% of its hp* -4

Creature is chaotic -1

Creature is fighting hated enemy +4

Creature is lawful +1

Creature was surprised -2

Creatures are fighting wizards or magic-using foes -2

Creatures with 1/2 HD or less -2

Creatures with greater than 1/2 HD, but less than 1 HD -1

Creatures with 4 to 8+ HD +1

Creatures with 9 to 14+ HD +2

Creatures with 15 or more HD +3

Defending home +3

Defensive terrain advantage +1

Each additional check required in round** -1

Leader is of different alignment -1

Most powerful ally killed -4

NPC has been favored +2

NPC has been poorly treated -4

No enemy slain -2

Outnumbered by 3 or more to 1 -4

Outnumber opponent 3 or more to 1 +2

Unable to affect opponent*** -8

Wizard or magic-using creature on same side +2

* Or a group that has lost that percentage of monster or creatures.

** -1/check required.

*** Creatures protected from attack by magic or which require magic weapons to be struck and group does not possess these.

 

[GMMichael]

I have gone back to 1e Dnd for a closer look at how they did it and it looks quite fiddly. I was thinking of ways to formalise it as it feels like this is the martial characters version of sleep or fear to take multiple enemies out of the fight.

That's a good observation. Don't let the barbarian go around casting quasi-sleep nor quasi-fear. The barb can Charisma check (or Intimidate, for you skill-lovers) one opponent, the situation can Charisma check everyone. Further, making an opponent run away with Charisma counts as an action, because if it's free, then it's even better than quasi-fear. For results, see below.

DMG also suggests you could check every round if clearly outmatched but that's very DM subjective. Does anyone have any thoughts on the best way to implement inside the skill system so the numbers stack up.

Which DMG? Since you're playing D&D 5e (or OneD&D, which "is not a new edition"), you don't want numbers stacking up. That was 3rd ed. If you have to roll, use Advantage or Disadvantage as appropriate.

As far as when to roll, I'm thinking you can ask yourself two fairly simple questions when they seem appropriate. As the NPC:

1. Do I think I'm going to die if I keep fighting?
2. Is the reason I'm fighting worth dying for?

 

[SkidAce]

Found the 2e modifiers:

Table 49: Morale Ratings

Creature Type Morale

Non-intelligent monster 18

Animal, normal and peaceful 3

Animal, normal predator 7

Animal intelligence monster 12

Semi-intelligent monster 11

Low intelligence 10

Average 0-level human 7

Mobs 9

Militia 10

Green or disorganized troops 11

Regular soldiers 12

Elite soldiers 14

Hirelings 12

Henchmen 15



Table 50: Situational Modifiers

Situation Modifier

Abandoned by friends -6

Creature lost 25% of its hp* -2

Creature lost 50% of its hp* -4

Creature is chaotic -1

Creature is fighting hated enemy +4

Creature is lawful +1

Creature was surprised -2

Creatures are fighting wizards or magic-using foes -2

Creatures with 1/2 HD or less -2

Creatures with greater than 1/2 HD, but less than 1 HD -1

Creatures with 4 to 8+ HD +1

Creatures with 9 to 14+ HD +2

Creatures with 15 or more HD +3

Defending home +3

Defensive terrain advantage +1

Each additional check required in round** -1

Leader is of different alignment -1

Most powerful ally killed -4

NPC has been favored +2

NPC has been poorly treated -4

No enemy slain -2

Outnumbered by 3 or more to 1 -4

Outnumber opponent 3 or more to 1 +2

Unable to affect opponent*** -8

Wizard or magic-using creature on same side +2

* Or a group that has lost that percentage of monster or creatures.

** -1/check required.

*** Creatures protected from attack by magic or which require magic weapons to be struck and group does not possess these.

Nice base for a 5e system, but way too much as is, IMHO.

We need to snag the concept out of there and condense it somehow.


edit : their > there.

 

[ichabod]

I just stole demoralize from PF2E. You make a intimidation check against 10 + their will save. If you succeed they're frightened for one round. It's an action, but if you have intimidation as a class skill or have expertise in it, you can do it as a bonus action. Each character can only do it once per creature per combat.