Into The Fire!--Contrasting Analysis of 4E and 3.5E

[SHARK]

Greetings!

Well, I've been away for a bit now. Things in the *Big Ocean of Life* have kept me out of it. I'm back now, though. So, perhaps a good line-up of you gentlemen--and women--could give *ME* a thorough, detailed analysis of 4th Edition D&D. I want to hear cogent, well-thought out analysis and arguments about what is good about 4E--and what's bad, about it too.

Then, as an added bonus, if you will, my friends, briefly compare and contrast such positive and negative points of 4E with relevant points of 3.5E, which is, of course, what I'm most familiar with.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

 

[malraux]

DMing is easier. Edition flamewars are worse.

 

[DaveMage]

If you don't like 3.5, you might like 4E.

If you like 3.5, you might not like 4E.

Otherwise, pretty much look at the thread titles in General and I think you'll be able to find what you;re looking for.

 

[Obryn]

This is a huge question, and I don't know that I can cover it better than many other threads on this forum.

There's a big philosophical difference, though.

3e assumes that the game rules are the physics of the game-world, and works from building blocks up. PCs and NPCs are built the same way, as are monsters. I'd call it process-based.

4e is more results-based. The game rules are expressly not considered to be the physics of the game world. Monsters and NPCs are created differently than PCs, with emphasis on the final result rather than the build process.

-O

 

[Kid Charlemagne]

Nice to see you around, SHARK! It has been a while.

I was just looking at your other thread, and thought "I wonder what he thinks of 4E..." I suspect that it just might be to your tastes - it incorporates a lot of high level D&D concepts (and posits a more powerful starting position) than 3.5, and in that, it seems that it might well fit with your style.

4E refines the core mechanic of the d20 system one step further than 3.X - you can attack using ANY stat, although which stat is used dependes on the particular power. This is measured against a specific defense - AC, Reflex, Will, or Fortitude. Attacks, Defenses, and Skills all scale up at the same rate, so that it's just as plausible to use a Bluff check versus Reflex as it is to roll a Dex attack versus AC (say if you wanted to cause someone to be off balance for some reason).

All of these are based off the same formula. Each defense can be modified by either of two stats - for example, either Strength or Constitution can modify your Fortitude Defense.

There are a lot of little streamlining things like this in 4E; things like all light weapons using DEX as their attack stat, in effect giving everyone Weapon Finesse for free; or conversely, heavy thrown weapons like a hammer would use STR as their attack stat.

Each class has a role, and a "power source." Role defines what the class is intended to do in a rough sense - striker, defender, controller. Strikers do more damage, defenders can take more hits, controllers affect other characters or change the battlefield. Power Sources just codify how a character gets their power - arcane, divine, etc.

The biggest difference is in the Powers. Every class has access to a suite of Powers (each class calls them by a different name), and gets them at the same rate and at the same levels. The powers are all fairly different, and all very self-contained - no referring around to things. Each class has a while list of these from 1-20th level, and they take up a big part of the PHB. Your characters, on the other hand, will not have a huge selection themselves - no more wizards with 50 spells at his disposal at high levels; spells are now powers, and are mostly limited to what is useful in battle, with all other "spells" being relegated to the status of rituals, which are used outside of combat. That's where you'll find a lot of things like Raise Dead, for instance.

Monsters have been simplified, and flavored up a bit. Emphasis is more on multiple kinds of monsters, each filling a role (striker, defender, etc). DM prep is simplified - encounters are built on a "XP Budget", and you just keep adding a certain XP amount of monsters until you get the total you want.

I'll let others fill in the blanks, or add to this - or correct me, as I haven't actually played that much 4E to this point. A lot of people like it, a lot of people think its just too different from 3.X for them to make the change. It is unquestionably very different from any previous version of the game.

 

[Charwoman Gene]

It is unquestionably very different from any previous version of the game.

I seriously question that. It is less different from 3e than 3e was from 2e. It's closer to 1e than 3e in some ways.

 

[Kraydak]

3E tries to make the crunch compatible with the fluff.
4E decided not to attempt such compatibility, and tries to take advantage of that decision.

I think most of the contrasts between the editions can be boiled down to the above (although it may cost a lot of heating power and generate a lot of steam before you get there... and subtleties will be lost).

I tried writing some more... but it didn't add anything useful to the above. So I deleted it. The difference between the editions really occurs at a very basic level, so while you can argue minutia, it doesn't really matter. 4E will either grate on your simulationist tendencies or it won't.

Beyond that, the Core rules were embarrassingly in need of errata when first printed (at least), a lot of which has been provided. So if you move editions, check out the errata. Obviously.

 

[Delta]

I seriously question that. It is less different from 3e than 3e was from 2e. It's closer to 1e than 3e in some ways.

And they're off!

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

Damn, I was hoping this thread would be SHARK's analysis of the two editions.

(I can wait.)

 

[Remathilis]

Damn, I was hoping this thread would be SHARK's analysis of the two editions.

(I can wait.)

Me too.

In answer to the question from someone who likes both editions...

Fourth edition does two major things in its revision; streamline and balance play and create an all-encompassing "world". Both have met varying degrees of flack.

To the first, the major revision has been the powers system replacing spellcasting, 1/2 of the feat engine, and class abilities by rolling them into one all-purpose "power" structure. All classes have a predetermined amount of powers at a given level the constitute attacks, spells, combat maneuvers, class abilities, bard songs, rages, etc. This creates a game that is inherently more balanced between classes, with the side-effect of a level of "sameness" with powers (as in, most powers have an ability score vs defense to hit, deal damage and grant an effect, and are mostly differentiated by fluff and keywords)

Beyond this, skills have been condensed into a a dozen or so "adventure useful" skills (no profession: cartwright here!), saves have been turned into static "defense" scores, hp has been increased at the same time damage has been toned down (esp in spellcasting) creating longer, less-swingy fights, movement is more important (bring with it a battle-mat friendliness), magical gear is less important (though still useful) and healing has been radically changed to fix problems with healing and clerics (as well as give all classes some self-healing).

At the same time, D&D's "fluff" has been dramatically altered. While elves, dwaves, giants, vampires and dragons are all still present, each received a "re-imaging" to update the mythos. In addition, newer races that appeared in later editions (like 2e's tieflings or 3e's dragonborn) became first-round race choices; many outsiders were removed or changed, some monsters got higher or lower "levels" to accommodate a 30 level game, the great wheel was tossed for a simpler cosmology, the affectionately called "points of light" world became the non-setting default setting, Forgotten Realms and Eberron have received updated to comply with the changes in the core world, and some famous faces (druids, gnomes, metallic dragons, frost giants) were held back until the second round of core books (coming in 2009) come out, expanding the concept of core beyond "SRD-only" to "All books with PHB/DMG/MM on the cover".

Beyond that, all you've missed is the sad state of GSL (4e's OGL), the death and rebirth of D&D Minis, and a lot of shouting matches that involve the words "grognard, video game, WoW, anime, Mini's Game, MMORPG, CCG, and not-really-D&D"

Welcome back!