Into The Fire!--Contrasting Analysis of 4E and 3.5E

Really, I think 4e's generic task resolution system is a bit better for not great DM's. A good DM can of course shine with any ruleset. But for not great DMs like myself, we (or at least I) benefit from a set of rules where I can follow my "just say yes" instincts without making things too easy or to hard.
 

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There's no way you could make a call like that without 4e to guide you

And there's no way you could make a comment like that without the snark to guide you?

Please, folks - we are getting into the holiday season. Why don't we try taking it easy on one another, instead of taking it out on one another. It'll make a nice change of pace.
 

Man, that is COOL!

There's no way you could make a call like that without 4e to guide you-- not even SHARK!
A good GM can wing any system to make things work and be fun. A good GM can still benefit from referrences that make things easier or make such calls more apparent.

I have no idea was sort of experience SW has at running a game, but if 4e makes it easier for him to do it well, then it's a good thing. I've been gaming, mostly GMing, for 25+ years. I know darn good and well how to bend and break rules to get things to work. I still appreciate a game where, when I do have to use fiat, there is some baseline that helps me to be more consistent.
 


My rather haphazard thoughts on 4E & 3E as follows:

4E
- Better overall playablility. Lots of small nuanced rules have been jetisoned, stuff like the difficulty of casting spells on horse back.
- Better character progression. All characters have goodies at each level, not like when my Paladin gained 5 hps, 1 bab and an already obsolete spell while my cleric buddy gained access to 12 new powers.
- Better monster design. The 4E vampire stat block is still a bit too long but much improved over the 3E 2 pages of summoned CR1 wolves & water immersion rules.
- Consolidation of skills into tighter groups that still cover the important bases, oh and skill challenges (albeit after a rather major hiccup).
- Better magic treasure design. The 3Emispricing of items and 1/2 resale value meant that a helm of underwater action was effectively converted into a +X stat booster. Each item now also does something cool.
- Controlled numbers. The weird mismatched fights where one monster has a +9 to hit, another +16, one PC has AC 16 and another AC 32. Characters would go from seemingly invulnerable to wet tissue within the space of a combat. Given the limitation of the d20, this is in my view the best change.
- Oh yeah, the (near) elimination of level drain & rolled character stats. Basically hard-coded unfair/unfun-ness.
- The defined roles of characters does limit certain character development. E.g. the paladin needs str or cha for their powers and as 'to hit' is hard to come by, these stats need all the boosts they can get. Now if the paladin picks up a bow which requires dex, they'll find themself missing equal level foes most of the time.
- MAD is back, and badder than ever. Said paladin needs str, cha, con, wis, and hopefully a bit of dex for ref defence. 22 pt buy leaves them all pretty thin. I think the pt buy should have been more generous with 16+ stats costing more than than they currently do.
- Statting up classed NPCs is still a drag. The MM has 10 different sorts of Goblin, but no sample Cleric or Rogue? The whole urban dungeon has been neglected when time saving is otherwise a major grace of the new edition.
- Paired stats that boost the various fort/ref/will defences clash with class stat requirements (and MAD). Some character will have nicely placed stats to cover all defences, while another guy will be rocking around with a big huge hole in their defences.
- For melee based characters there appears to be a must have feat at level 21 to increase the crit range, but the twin stat requirement looks like it's going to sting various characters that didn't bear it in mind 20 levels earlier.
- Pet peeve here, my human character gets a 3rd at will power, cool eh? Um no. He's a str build paladin who's forced to select a cha based 'at-will' power, which will never be used as it's always an inferior choice compared to the other 2 'at-wills'. I guess this is not much different to the Elf character that cares nothing for diplomacy but still gets a +2 bonus. Basically, this comes down to unused racial and class features still abound in 4E, i.e. the warlord who wields a greataxe, is paying for the shield proficiency they won't use. I would have liked an approach they use for skills applied to weapons & armour - where you get the essentials and pick other stuff from a smorgasboard of appropriate proficiencies.

3E
- As they say, 3E was a necessary step before 4E. There were plenty of fun times with it.
- The ambitious universal rule set is still attractive but for the time commitment. There is just an arcane charm with the sheer complexity of the multitudes of rules covering such things like the shimmer when abjurations cross each other over time.
- Characters got major goodies more freely than in 4E, or even 3.5. I remember the entire party with boots of striding and springing, and fun-turned-abuse-then-boredom with 3.0 haste.
- Really, I think 3E is essentially less controlled than 4E. It has an upside for sure, but there was so much freedom that it included negative freedoms, e.g. my friends rogue sorcerer... he was a cool character, but man did he blow once initiative was rolled.

Regardless of edition, there is at the roleplaying level little change. There are still mysterious dungeons, besieged castles, murder mysteries, scheming traiters, honourable allies etc in our campaign. A sizable chunk of the game imho hasn't changed.
 
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I borrowed and read my buddies core books and skimmed a couple of others -but I haven't played so grain of salt

The mechanics of 4e are quite interesting. The powers system allows every class to have "cool powers" . Prep time is also greatly reduced. Its very much a game meant to be played. Get your buddies together, grab some snacks the dice ,a mat and minis and PLAY. I'd have played the heck out of it when I was a kid.

I also adore the new cosmology and will probably graft it into my 3x games -- I used something similar anyway.

That being said I don't care much for it thus far. I guess 4e is one game where I like the fluff but not the crunch. In fact I have no plans to purchase anything for the game except possibly the new Manual of the Planes.

Now as to 3e. Why I liked 3e is it gave the pretense of their being a world outside "the adventure" -- there were NPC classes that allowed you to create ordinary people just like you would adventurer types. Supplemental 3rd party books like "And Everyone Else" really brought this to the front.

With a few tweaks or a few outside rules (such as in A Game of Thrones D20) I could make 3x give me any play experience from Pretty Regular Joes up to Epic Stuff like your own world (and some portions of mine) -- even early on I could use Grim N Gritty

While 4e allows it with a fudge (my fighter was a sailor) just as 1e did -- 3e allowed me to codify it with feats and skills and a few minor house rules -- it fit more seamlessly into the rules set. It has more verisimilitude when I want it.

On another note I also feel a lot more confident in making 3x mine as versus Hasbro's game. 4e seems fiddly and I hesitate to try new stuff especially 3rd party powers.

This of course may be intentional -- make development more difficult to drive more purchases from Wizards.

Since you have plenty of books and I presume a content group I won't recommend a purchase -- 4e is just not that interesting to a world builder.
 

With a few tweaks or a few outside rules (such as in A Game of Thrones D20) I could make 3x give me any play experience from Pretty Regular Joes up to Epic Stuff like your own world (and some portions of mine) -- even early on I could use Grim N Gritty

While 4e allows it with a fudge (my fighter was a sailor) just as 1e did -- 3e allowed me to codify it with feats and skills and a few minor house rules -- it fit more seamlessly into the rules set. It has more verisimilitude when I want it.

Well, different strokes for different folks I guess, but the idea of playing "heroic commoners" was never a sale-point to me. In fact, I find the idea of 17th level commoners a paradox; he's better at most things than most low-level adventurers! With commoners like that, why hire adventurers?

It doesn't hurt my sense of belief to know that that vast majority of the population (be it humans, elves, or orcs) have no class, stats, or need for either. They exist because I say they do, and die because I say they die. They don't need hp or ACs unless some attacks them, and for those rare ones that do need stats, I have no problems utilizing the PC classes or monster rules to stat them out.

Oh, and forget playing one. I like being a hero, not a potato farmer.

So to me the lack of NPC "classes" is a non-issue. If you get more out of them so be it, but I survived 2e without them, and I think I'll survive 4e without them either.
 

Well, different strokes for different folks I guess, but the idea of playing "heroic commoners" was never a sale-point to me. In fact, I find the idea of 17th level commoners a paradox; he's better at most things than most low-level adventurers! With commoners like that, why hire adventurers?

Uhm...because a commoner doesn't want to risk life and limb for gold and probably doesn't have the fundamental skills to survive the adventuring lifestyle.

Quick question how does the ability for others in 3.5 to play adventuring commoners in any way impact the fun you would have playing in a different style by utilizing a higher level? Now can the same be said in reverse if all support for a particular style is gone?

It doesn't hurt my sense of belief to know that that vast majority of the population (be it humans, elves, or orcs) have no class, stats, or need for either. They exist because I say they do, and die because I say they die. They don't need hp or ACs unless some attacks them, and for those rare ones that do need stats, I have no problems utilizing the PC classes or monster rules to stat them out.

What I don't like about this style of game design, is the everyone is a special snowflake syndrome, from Human Rotting Beggar to Aspect of Grugar the Bloody...every being has specific powers that you as a character will never be able to learn to do...even if it makes sense that you should be able to train and learn them. No matter how powerful an arch-mage or even demi-god you become...you will never learn or be able to cast the hex of a Blue Goblin Hexmaster...or as a warrior learn the Reach-over Strike of a Ogre Mercenary Slayer.

Oh, and forget playing one. I like being a hero, not a potato farmer.

Uhm...why are they mutually exclusive...from farmboy to greatest jedi of his time...It seems you have a very narrow definition of what a "hero" is...I guess only those with special powers above and beyond normal men can ever be "heroes".

So to me the lack of NPC "classes" is a non-issue. If you get more out of them so be it, but I survived 2e without them, and I think I'll survive 4e without them either.

Yeah and you can survive off bread and bologna for the rest of your life...but it ain't necessarily the best food to eat for a lifetime. Ultimately it boils down to preference, but I feel the best choice is when both preferences can be achieved with the least amount of work on both ends. IMHO, 4e fails horribly at this, while 3e/3.5 does it admirably. YMMV of course.
 

Quick question how does the ability for others in 3.5 to play adventuring commoners in any way impact the fun you would have playing in a different style by utilizing a higher level? Now can the same be said in reverse if all support for a particular style is gone?

1.) I'd have to say those who play adventuring commoners (or any NPC class) is a significant minority of the D&D population, and one with the sheer amount of energy necessary to devote to 4e class construction wasn't worth the time. I'd have REALLY been ticked to see a commoner class in the DMG without seeing a druid class in the PHB first!

2.) Secondly, Playing a heroic commoner should be easy in 4e. Assign the PC 22 points (or less, depending on your taste) to scores, give him wizard hp (10+con, 4/lvl) and no defense bonuses, one simple weapon proficiency, any two trained skills, and zero at-will, encounter, and daily power. As he rises in levels, he can take feats and gain ability score bumps as normal, but doesn't gain powers unless he multi-classes (take an MC feat) to gain another classes powers (max of one daily, one encounter, one utility). He gets no paragon path (unless its an MC path) and may/may not gain a epic destiny (DM choice). There, a perfectly "usable" commoner-adventurer

What I don't like about this style of game design, is the everyone is a special snowflake syndrome, from Human Rotting Beggar to Aspect of Grugar the Bloody...every being has specific powers that you as a character will never be able to learn to do...even if it makes sense that you should be able to train and learn them. No matter how powerful an arch-mage or even demi-god you become...you will never learn or be able to cast the hex of a Blue Goblin Hexmaster...or as a warrior learn the Reach-over Strike of a Ogre Mercenary Slayer.

3.) The "normals" (Joe the Potato Farmer and his family) don't need stats. A best they're going to be asked some questions or perform a skill check (at a bonus I can fake quickly). Anyone with a name (such as above) has stats for one reason, the PCs are going to ally with him or fight him. At that point, he's a special snowflake.

4.) There are plenty of powers in the course of D&D characters cannot learn. No whip-master, no matter his skill, can entangle like a balor can, for example.

Uhm...why are they mutually exclusive...from farmboy to greatest jedi of his time...It seems you have a very narrow definition of what a "hero" is...I guess only those with special powers above and beyond normal men can ever be "heroes".

Luke was CERTAINLY more than a farmer. He was the scion of the Chosen One, strong in the Force (magic) and even before leaving Tattooine he was a good mechanic, a crack shot, and the best brush pilot in the Rebellion. If that's not a 1st level PC class, I don't know what is!

(And for the record, in every edition of d20 Star Wars, Luke never started with an NPC class level; he was a first level fringer (scout in saga) before taking Jedi levels.)

Yeah and you can survive off bread and bologna for the rest of your life...but it ain't necessarily the best food to eat for a lifetime. Ultimately it boils down to preference, but I feel the best choice is when both preferences can be achieved with the least amount of work on both ends. IMHO, 4e fails horribly at this, while 3e/3.5 does it admirably. YMMV of course.

4e and 3.5 had different design goals. 3.5 focused on simulating everything via the rules, 4e only concerns itself with the stuff it thinks matters (aka combat, adventurers, skill challenges, etc). The result is a system that is more streamlined (due to its narrower focus) at the expense of "completeness" (having a rule to handle nearly any concievable situation).

And as for food metaphors, consider this one. You get the same nutrition from bologna as you can from most other meats. If you could never eat bologna again, you'd survive perfectly fine on any other meat product, only those who like it would miss it and those who don't wouldn't care less.
 

I wasn't implying playing the commoner class . Sorry if I was unclear on that point.

What I like is the fact the 3x characters feel more like people and less like as stack of powers like 4e characters do.

Lets say I ma playing a Human Fighter who was a fisherman from Cragland -- 2nd level (our standard choice)

In my lightly houseruled 3e PHB only I'd do this \

stats-- blah blah

grab 4feats

do my skills

hmm a fisherman huh ? Lets see thats Prof: Fisher, Climb , Swim, Jump and 2 in Intimidate-- and a point in spot

OK give him some gear

This feels like a regular guy to me and thats PHB only

add a few more tweaks from splay books and its even better OH yeah right Craglanders have a regional feat -- I'll take that -- he also gets Spot as a class skill now --so that will be better -- alright great

Now in 4e I do pretty much the same thing but instead I pick style (sword/board or 2hander) a bunch of combat powers , a utility power a few skills (all of which are combat skills) and thats pretty much done.

Its easier-- yes butt stuf flike the new cleave at will makes him feel like very powerful hero at l1 (look I can kill a mnion every round) rather than a regular Joe who is a hero --

at high level I'll grant you it evens out a bit but 4e completely lacks the versimilitude I crave in a game

For the record I don't think its a bad game at all -- it well designed and very playable -- if an opporunity comes (and if they get Wildshape) I am going to play a Warden

However I rarely play and I don't feel like 4eis something I'd want to run or build worlds for --
 

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