Into The Fire!--Contrasting Analysis of 4E and 3.5E

[Dragonbait]

It seems that people are giving pretty accurate and unbiased descriptions on here, so I have little to add on the similarities and differences..

If you really don't want to use minis, and its clear you have no qualms with house-rules, there ARE several rules that have been developed on here and other boards to make 4E mini-less. I can not vouch for them, but they DO exist in multiple versions.

 

[Nebulous]

It's easily broken, too, if you set out to do so. If you use an inappropriate minion in a battle (say, a Level 27 Legion Devil vs. a 3rd-level party), you get some crazy, broken, insane results. (Solution: Don't use inappropriate minions.)

Does the DMG address this? In other words, "DM - don't use a minion inappropriate for the level of your party. The combat results will be grossly skewed and inaccuate."

Seems logical to me but a lot of people have complained about the role of minions.

 

[Ourph]

I have an enormous library of 3.5 stuff. In fact, I have a larger and more diverse collection than many game stores. I have books that I have hardly even glanced at--much less had the opportunity to use and expand in a campaign. Many of them are still new and glossy, with only the forward's being perused. I honestly thought that it was far too soon for WOTC to introduce a new edition. I enjoy 3.5 D&D, and, perhaps because of my own DMing style and particular house-rules, I do not seem to have had many of the problems with 3.5 D&D that others have experienced. Thus, I am less than thrilled with my vast library of 3.5 D&D books being *obselete*.

Keep your 3.5 books. I think 4e has great mechanics, but the rulebooks are (to put it mildly) fluff light. This is great in some ways. You get a lot of rules-bang for your buck. But it's nice to have inspirational fluff to draw from and your 3.5 books are just as good for that as they ever were. It's so easy to create new monsters in 4e that I'm actively mining all of my old RPG books for cool new monster ideas, not just the D&D books. The same goes for NPCs, treasure, etc. The rest of your RPG library can still see a lot of good use if you decide to give 4e a try.

 

[Ulrick]

Ogre Minions shouldn't show up until you're fairly badass and can reasonably expect ogres to drop quickly. You might see ogre minions alongside ... I dunno, giants, powerful liches, something along that line. Not alongside kobolds.

As mentioned above, monsters' combat statistics aren't integral to them anymore. They don't necessarily say something fundamental about the creature outside of combat. They simply describe how a creature will perform in combat, this battle. There are no free-roaming ogre minions that are weaker than Kobolds and who die if they step on a caltrop.

It's very zen, and not to everyone's tastes. It's completely effects-based and lets you have huge battles without overwhelming bookkeeping.

It's easily broken, too, if you set out to do so. If you use an inappropriate minion in a battle (say, a Level 27 Legion Devil vs. a 3rd-level party), you get some crazy, broken, insane results. (Solution: Don't use inappropriate minions.)

-O

I'm not complaining about the role of minions, I just find it strange that ogre minions can have 1 hp and kobolds and giant rats have 30+.

In previous editions, an average kobold could be taken down by a single hit (1-4 hp) as does a giant rat.

 

[Obryn]

Does the DMG address this? In other words, "DM - don't use a minion inappropriate for the level of your party. The combat results will be grossly skewed and inaccuate."

Seems logical to me but a lot of people have complained about the role of minions.

It gives some general guidelines that you should avoid using creatures (including minions, I'd assume) that are too far above or below the PCs' levels for a balanced fight. But really, this aspect of fights (and minions in general) could have been spelled out a lot better.

It's between the lines - but never explicitly spelled out, as I recall.

(I also think they're overvalued as it stands, but that's another story.)

I'm not complaining about the role of minions, I just find it strange that ogre minions can have 1 hp and kobolds and giant rats have 30+.

In previous editions, an average kobold could be taken down by a single hit (1-4 hp) as does a giant rat.

Yep, it's quite different. A 1st-level Fighter had many fewer HPs in comparison, too, though.

You still have your 1 hp Kobold Minions, at least!

-O

 

[Lacyon]

Does the DMG address this? In other words, "DM - don't use a minion inappropriate for the level of your party. The combat results will be grossly skewed and inaccuate."

The DMG explicitly states that monsters more than 4 levels below or 7 levels above the party aren't good encounters.

It could definitely have benefitted from an addendum that a minion can be replaced for the same XP value with a normal monster 8 levels lower (and vice versa).

 

[SpydersWebbing]

I love 4th edition. Just do. It's far easier to DM the thing without House Rules, has better combat without getting rid of roleplaying. It allows for imagination.

For instance:

Last night I was DMing a game with a friend of mine, and we were fighting a blue dragon in an old dwarven stronghold. The ceiling above the dragon looked pretty frail, so my friend asked if he could knock the ceiling down on the dragon. Since my friend was a swordmage (a melee spellcaster) I told him he'd have to do something really cool, since the ceiling was more than 30 feet high, and well out of his reach with any of his spells that he had left.

As a move action my buddy ran up the dragon's head and vaulted off of the dragon (Athletics check). While in the air he shot lightning from his sword (Lightning Lure) and pulled half the ceiling down on the dragon! Using the table provided in the DM's guide I adjicated that the stones did 30 damage to the dragon (2d12+9).

The DM's guide provides you with the rules necessary to absolutely own in any way you wish, you just have to make the check. It has a very fluid and intuitive feel to it, which I prefer over 3.5's clunky-as-hell combat system.

I hope that helps you Shark!

 

[Staffan]

As for minions, many humanoid monsters have a higher-level minion version. For example, ogres are generally level 8-11 monsters. But there's also a level 16 "Ogre Bludgeoneer" minion monster. This monster has the same XP value as the normal level 8 ogres, but is more useful as enslaved cannonfodder used by a tribe of cyclopes (level 14-17). A 16th level fighter (attack bonus about +17 and AC 25) vs an 8th level ogre savage (Atk +11, AC 19, 111 hp) is just dull - the fighter has to smash through a lot of hit points, but the ogre will rarely hit him; but a 16th level fighter versus a 16th level ogre bludgeoneer (+19 to hit, AC 28, 1 hp) is more fun. The fighter will take the minion out in an average of 2 rounds (50% chance to hit), but the minion might actually get a lick or two in at the fighter before he's taken out.

Similarly, common orcs are level 3-5, but there's a level 9 orc minion as well for use as cannonfodder together with, say, ogres.

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

As a move action my buddy ran up the dragon's head and vaulted off of the dragon (Athletics check). While in the air he shot lightning from his sword (Lightning Lure) and pulled half the ceiling down on the dragon! Using the table provided in the DM's guide I adjicated that the stones did 30 damage to the dragon (2d12+9).

Man, that is COOL!

There's no way you could make a call like that without 4e to guide you-- not even SHARK!

 

[Mallus]

Man, that is COOL!

There's no way you could make a call like that without 4e to guide you-- not even SHARK!

I ran a great 2e campaign for years, I could say the same about 3e...

Whatever tool gets you enthused about the game or helps you run a cool session is cool (this tautology was brought to you by: Mallus).