D&D 5E Invisibility and positioning

[Plaguescarred]

How do you guys handle positioning when unseen, wether invisible, heavily obscured or blinded? Do you make such creature's location still known (as well as miniature if playing with them) or you don't?

It's a subject of contention in our group with people coming off various edition, AD&D folks thinking you shouldn't while 4E folks saying it does. I'm not talking about being hidden here, but only unseen.


So i'm curious to hear how it's handled in your group?

 

[KahlessNestor]

Since in 5e, if you're not hidden but unseen, your position is still known. Just have disadvantage on attacks.

 

[Plaguescarred]

I'd say since 4E even

 

[Rhenny]

Howdy, Plaguescarred my friend.

With complete stealth and invisibility, I make the attacker pick a square and attack with disadvantage. If there is a tick (i.e., not stealth roll or failed stealth roll) the position is known, but still attacks against it are at disadvantage.

Cheers, brother.

 

[Hriston]

Unseen doesn't mean hidden in AD&D 1e either, so I'm not sure where that's coming from. Maybe it's a 2e thing.

 

[Plaguescarred]

The confusion mostly is due to these conflicting game elements;


Invisible: The creature’s location can be detected by any noise it makes or any tracks it leaves.

Unseen Attackers & Targets: When you attack a target that you can’t see, you have disadvantage on the attack roll. This is true whether you’re guessing the target’s location or you’re targeting a creature you can hear but not see. If the target isn’t in the location you targeted, you automatically miss, but the DM typically just says that the attack missed, not whether you guessed the target’s location correctly.

Feral Sense: You are also aware of the location of any invisible creature within 30 feet of you, provided that the creature isn’t hidden from you and you aren’t blinded or deafened.


While the Invisible condition states that the creature’s location can still be detected, Unseen Attackers & Targets suggest guessing positioning by saying that a creature not targeted in the location it occupies automatically miss.

But if only hiding end up concealing your position, then why would Feral Sense make you specifically aware of the location of any invisible creature that isn’t hidden from you if you are supposed to already know the location of any creature not hidden?

Essentially, what i tell some of my friends is that if they're insisting in having unseen concealing positioning, then what does hiding does in the end if in order to hide you generally need to be unseen in the first place?

 

[Rhenny]

The confusion mostly is due to these conflicting game elements;

Invisible: The creature’s location can be detected by any noise it makes or any tracks it leaves.

Unseen Attackers & Targets: When you attack a target that you can’t see, you have disadvantage on the attack roll. This is true whether you’re guessing the target’s location or you’re targeting a creature you can hear but not see. If the target isn’t in the location you targeted, you automatically miss, but the DM typically just says that the attack missed, not whether you guessed the target’s location correctly.

Feral Sense: You are also aware of the location of any invisible creature within 30 feet of you, provided that the creature isn’t hidden from you and you aren’t blinded or deafened.

While the Invisiblee condition states that the creature’s location can still be detected by any noise it makes or any tracks it leaves, Unseen Attackers & Targets suggest guessing positioning by saying that a creature not targeted in the location it occupies automatically miss.

Essentially, what i tell some of my friends is that if they're insisting in having unseen concealing positioning, then what does hiding does in the end?

And if only hiding end up concealing your position, then why would Feral Sense make you specifically aware of the location of any invisible creature that isn’t hidden from you if you are supposed to already do?

The Feral Sense ability seems a little ambiguous, but I'd rule even if the PC knows the location of an invisible creature he/she still attacks at disadvantage. I think the name "Feral Sense" implies that it is an ability that will warn a PC if they are in danger from invisible creatures, rather than a combat ability that negates the penalty of attacking an invisible creature.

Adding stealth, if the creature is actively trying to be hidden, stealth roll/score needs to be checked. Success and Feral Sense kicks in. Failure, no Feral Sense. In this sense, Feral Sense is only really a benefit when PCs are not actively looking for foes or when an invisible foe is not actively trying to hide. I can live with that.

 

[Plaguescarred]

I also think there's a problem with Feral Sense.

I just searched Jeremy Crawford's Twitter for some insights to show them; and i found this: https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/700091049696362496?lang=fr

@MadeFor5e By books, unseen things don't broadcast location by default. Please explain previous tweets. https://docs.google.com/document/d/1cX1pGqeuHK7lWQGGNzfLuUzpPrG0IC0fucpAim0Zga4/edit?usp=sharing …
@JeremyECrawford If you have questions about particular tweets, please tweet your questions, and I'll do my best to answer.
‏@MadeFor5e https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/536686682213744642 …This is the tweet I am referencing @JeremyECrawford Being hidden is the by-the-book way to conceal your position. The DM may decide that other methods can also conceal it.
@JeremyECrawford Being hidden is, indeed, the default way to conceal (sight and sound) your position. Is there more you'd like clarified?

While Jeremy confirms hidden is the default way to conceal your position, het never addresses the issues of Feral Sense detection ability.

 

[Rhenny]

The Feral Sense ability seems a little ambiguous, but I'd rule even if the PC knows the location of an invisible creature he/she still attacks at disadvantage. I think the name "Feral Sense" implies that it is an ability that will warn a PC if they are in danger from invisible creatures, rather than a combat ability that negates the penalty of attacking an invisible creature.

Adding stealth, if the creature is actively trying to be hidden, stealth roll/score needs to be checked. Success and Feral Sense kicks in. Failure, no Feral Sense. In this sense, Feral Sense is only really a benefit when PCs are not actively looking for foes or when an invisible foe is not actively trying to hide. I can live with that.

This is weird, I'm replying to my own post. lol.

Thinking more about this Feral Sense problem, in game play as DM, I'd probably just let the PC detect the invisible creature automatically unless it was really hidden (say behind a wall or under a table or in a barrel, etc.). I'd do this to speed up game play and reduce confusion. Too much die rolling bogs the game down for me and quite frankly when I DM, I sometimes forget rules so I like to keep the game moving.

 

[Plaguescarred]

I also found this tweet that is pertinent https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/684181987150594048?lang=fr


@fritomuncher My PC uses the invisibility spell, does he auto hide or do I still need to take the hide action to not be targeted?
@JeremyECrawford The invisibility spell doesn't automatically hide you; you still make noise. #DnD
@fritomuncher Thanks! A friend of mine will be upset his PC can't auto-hide but I'm glad to see this cleared up.



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