Invisibility and Scrolls?

[Black Omega]

I'm sure his has been answered previously but I can't search, so...

Can a invisible wizard still use scrolls to cast spells? Spells like Invisibility Sphere seem to suggest in other invisibility spells you can't see yourself.

I'm personally learning toward the wizard can use scrolls, but I wondering if this was already covered elsewhere.

 

[Hypersmurf]

I'm sure his has been answered previously...

Actually, last time, we got into an argument as to whether an invisible person can see himself that was never resolved, from memory

-Hyp.

 

[Saeviomagy]

I'd say you have to be able to see yourself. Otherwise being invisible would negatively affect all of your dex-based skills (mind you, so would blindness... scratch that one then).

No evidence for or against.

The default would be to assume that you can use all items as normal, because the condition invisible never says that you can't.

 

[Hypersmurf]

But something that's invisible has 100% concealment, and the description of Blindsight specifically says you can't use it to read.

If you can't see it, you can't read it... and Blindsight won't cut it, so you need See Invisible or True Seeing...

-Hyp.

 

[Black Omega]

And Invisibility Sphere says specifically you can see yourself. Implying that unless otherwise stated, you can't. If you can't see yourself, how do you read the scroll you are carrying?

I hate to assume you can use al items normally unless it says otherwise. The Darkness spell doesn't say it prevents spells being cast using a scroll, but I suspect it doesn't need to.

 

[Hypersmurf]

And Invisibility Sphere says specifically you can see yourself. Implying that unless otherwise stated, you can't.

While I agree with you, I'll point out the other camp's argument.

Invisibility
If the character casts the spell on someone else, neither the character nor the character's allies can see the subject.

They note that it is specifically pointed out that the caster cannot see someone else he casts invisibility on, and suggest that this phrase is included because he can normally see himself if he casts the spell one himself.

I don't hold with the argument myself (since it's a Glamer, not a Phantasm or a Figment), but there it is

-Hyp.

 

[RedShirtNo5]

The other camp

Yep, compared to Hypersmurf, I'm in the other camp.

I can't see any reason for invisibility and invisibility sphere to work differently.

Also, the various descriptions of invisibility never mention any penalties associated with being unable to see yourself.

Given those two factors, this is a case where the difference in text between the two spells is explicable by an editing choice, rather than indicating a designer intent for the spells to work differently.

Like Hypersmurf says, it's never been resolved.

-RedShirt

 

[Hypersmurf]

Re: The other camp

Also, the various descriptions of invisibility never mention any penalties associated with being unable to see yourself.

There aren't any.

There are, however, penalties associated with being unable to see your scroll

-Hyp.

 

[Murrdox]

When you are deaf, you suffer a 20% spell failure rate on any spells with a verbal component, due to the fact that you can't hear yourself speaking.

It would logically follow from this rule, that if you couldn't see yourself while invisible, there would be a spell failure chance for any spell with somatic components, due to the fact that you can't see your hands.

To me, it seems pretty obvious that it is intended that the invisible character can see himself. It is not explicitly stated because I believe the writers considered it to be "obvious".

Ack - wait I take all that back... there isn't any penalty associated with spell failure while Blinded is there?

D'oh! Then it seems my argument doesn't hold water. Interesting that being deaf gives you a chance to fail because you can't hear yourself pronounce the words correctly, but being blind doesn't do the same thing.

 

[kengar]

While this doesn't specifically address reading scrolls, this is the part of the spell description I've always found relevant:

Items dropped or put down by an invisible creature become visible; items picked up disappear if tucked into the clothing or pouches worn by the creature.

The way we play it IMC is that the caster can put the scroll down on the ground and read it lying there. Not official, but seems to address the issue for us.