Invisibility + Gaseous form (Player/DM argument)

[mikebailey2000]

I have a question.
Player and DM were playing DnD yesterday and had an impasse, Player's character was invisible... he then decided to use a gasous form spell..
Player believes that in gasous form he should still be invisible, DM doesn't agree.
In the Player's Manual, it says all supernatural abilities and touch spells are gone when one goes gaseous. Invisiblity is not either of these but DM feels it is close enough. DM says Player must chose the effect, because in gasous form you cannot cast any spells or attack, this form is all or nothing.
Of course Player does not agree so.....
What do you think? Please, no "The DM is always right" remarks. For the sake for expediency, the DM was ruled as correct for the session, but for future games, everyone involved (DM included) would like to establish which way is actually correct.

Thanks!

 

[TiQuinn]

I really don't see any reason why this wouldn't be allowed, unless there is something in a Sage Advice or an FAQ that specifcally addresses this. It sounds to me like a good use of spells to make oneself almost undetectable. You stated the case pretty well: Invisibility is a magical effect, not supernatural. It was used as a personal spell (which is actually a moot point because gaseous form only dispels unused touch spells.) Both spells have different effects, and nothing in the description suggest that they wouldn't stack. Carrying out the DM's logic, invisibility wouldn't stack with a polymorph self or fly either. The player might've thrown the DM for a little bit of a loop, and many DMs respond with "No" when they are unsure of something. Ah, well.

 

[mikebr99]

I really don't see any reason why this wouldn't be allowed, unless there is something in a Sage Advice or an FAQ that specifcally addresses this. It sounds to me like a good use of spells to make oneself almost undetectable. You stated the case pretty well: Invisibility is a magical effect, not supernatural. It was used as a personal spell (which is actually a moot point because gaseous form only dispels unused touch spells.) Both spells have different effects, and nothing in the description suggest that they wouldn't stack. Carrying out the DM's logic, invisibility wouldn't stack with a polymorph self or fly either. The player might've thrown the DM for a little bit of a loop, and many DMs respond with "No" when they are unsure of something. Ah, well.

I'll second this...

 

[Mr.Binx]

Aye. With Invisibility you only become visible when you take actions that could be construed as an attack. If the spell or action is not being used for offense, then the character would remain invisible. In the case above, by the core rules, the player should be able to cast Gaseous Form and still remain invisible. Maybe the DM is just accustomed to running an earlier edition of Dungeons & Dragons and hasn't fully shuffled out all the rules of 3rd edition yet.

 

[KarinsDad]

In the Player's Manual, it says all supernatural abilities and touch spells are gone when one goes gaseous.

All touch spells are gone when you cast ANY spell, not just Gaseous Form.

The player, though, is correct. Spells are not supernatural abilites. Close enough does not count.

DM made a mistake. It happens.

 

[Shirt Guy John]

I hope the player didn't suffer too badly for the DM's mistake, then.

 

[kreynolds]

Dammit. I hate it when I'm late and the lynch mob has already dispersed.

 

[Pielorinho]

To reiterate TiQuinn's very important parenthetical note, here's the relevant passage from the SRD's description of Gaseous Form:

As with polymorph other, the subject loses supernatural abilities while in gaseous form. If she has a touch spell ready to use, it is discharged harmlessly when the spell takes effect.

Note that the effects of a touch spell aren't lost -- only any readied touch spells. This is very different.

An interesting tactic that our rat-bastard DM used on us: Spell-like abilities aren't lost when in gaseous form; they also require neither verbal nor somatic components. Ogre mages, therefore, can cone of cold and so forth while gaseous. No fair whatsoever to us mere mortals .

The invisible+gaseous combo is fine.

Daniel

 

[ForceUser]

An interesting tactic that our rat-bastard DM used on us: Spell-like abilities aren't lost when in gaseous form; they also require neither verbal nor somatic components. Ogre mages, therefore, can cone of cold and so forth while gaseous. No fair whatsoever to us mere mortals .

Man-o-man, I can't wait to use this on my players. Thanks for the idea!

 

[KarinsDad]

Note that the effects of a touch spell aren't lost -- only any readied touch spells. This is very different.

This is true, but that's status quo for touch spells and does not only apply to casting Gaseous Form after casting a touch spell. I think they put it in there just to reiterate.

If you cast any spell, the effects of previous touched touch spells do not change, but the entire touch spell you still have up still goes away.

Them putting the sentence about touch spells into the Gaseous Form spell description might have assisted in the confusion. In other words, if you lose a touch spell and lose supernatural abilities, wouldn't you also lose other spells? Well, no, but some people might get confused. It really was an unnecessary sentence.