Invisibility, Stealth, Targets you can't see

[Damogag]

I'm a new DM trying to help my daughter play a game that I used to play 28 years ago. I like 4E and the rules are very interesting but I have questions on the Targets you can't see rules. I looked through the threads here but nothing answered the following questions very well.

What I'm looking at:

Using the latest PHB2/Compendium rules on Targeting what you can't see:

Invisible Creatures: I am assuming this applies to Invisible creatures due to magic, creatuers hidden by stealth, creatures in impenetrable darkness, and where the attacker is blind.

Invisible Creatures and Stealth: "If an invisible creature is hidden from the attacker (Stealth) the attacker can neither hear nor see it, and it has to guess the creature's position"

Make a Perception Check: "On its turn the attacker makes a Perception Check as a minor action to try to determine the location of an invisible crature that is hidden from it"

Pick a Square and Attack: "The attacker chooses a square to attack, using whatever informatoin it has gleaned about the enemy's location....If the attacker picks the wrong square, that attack automatically misses, but only the DM knows whether the attacker guessed wrong or simply rolled too low"

My Questions:

1. I believe that If the creature misses his initial stealth check vs Passive attacker Perception check then it is not hidden but if it is in TC/SC attacker knows what square it is in but takes a -5 penatly to hit. The creature can still try to hide afterwards I assume and another skill challenge occurs.

2. If the creature wins the initial skill challenge (Stealth vs. Passive Perceptoin) and is hidden, then it indicates that the attacker that is actively looking for an invisible creature, as defined above, can make a new Perception Check. Ok is this another skill challenge vs. the hidden creature's already rolled stealth check or is it some other DC created by the DM?

3. If the attacker wins whatever skill challenge that is required in 2 above, then does he still have to "Pick a Square and Attack" or does he know what square the hidden creature is in and thus can attack that square with only a -5 penalty if the formerly hidden creature is still in TC/SC. Or if he wins that skill challenge does he only glean a general location and have to pick one of several squares given by the DM? Or does "Pick a Square and Attack" only apply if he loses whatever skill challenge is required in 2 above. And does he even know he lost that skill challenge?

4. Is the attack roll made by the DM so that it doesn't give the attacker too much knowledge about whether he picked the wrong square or that the attacker's attack roll was too low to hit?

Any help is appreciated. I can see how knowing how the mechanics of this rule works will really enhance the game and the tactics involved.

Thanks. Damogag

 

[Nahat Anoj]

1. I believe that If the creature misses his initial stealth check vs Passive attacker Perception check then it is not hidden but if it is in TC/SC attacker knows what square it is in but takes a -5 penatly to hit. The creature can still try to hide afterwards I assume and another skill challenge occurs.

Correct. As long as it has total concealment (in this case, invisibility) it can try to become hidden later.

Just as a side note, Skill Challenges are another thing, different from merely rolling checks of, say, Perception vs Stealth. Skill Challenges are used to represent tense negotiations, overland journeys, or other situations were each skill roll can contribute to an overall outcome.

I'm going to assume your usage of "Skill Challenge" just means one character's Perception versus another's Stealth.

2. If the creature wins the initial skill challenge (Stealth vs. Passive Perceptoin) and is hidden, then it indicates that the attacker that is actively looking for an invisible creature, as defined above, can make a new Perception Check. Ok is this another skill challenge vs. the hidden creature's already rolled stealth check or is it some other DC created by the DM?

The attacker can use a minor action to roll Perception and try to find the hidden monster. The DC of this Perception check is equal to the hidden creature's Stealth roll.

3. If the attacker wins whatever skill challenge that is required in 2 above, then does he still have to "Pick a Square and Attack" or does he know what square the hidden creature is in and thus can attack that square with only a -5 penalty if the formerly hidden creature is still in TC/SC. Or if he wins that skill challenge does he only glean a general location and have to pick one of several squares given by the DM? Or does "Pick a Square and Attack" only apply if he loses whatever skill challenge is required in 2 above. And does he even know he lost that skill challenge?

If the attacker's Perception roll beats the hidden monster's Stealth check result, then the attacker knows where the hidden monster is. He doesn't have to guess which square the monster is in. However, because the monster is still invisible, the attacker as a -5 penalty to hit it.

If the attacker's Perception doesn't beat the monster's Stealth, then attacker has to guess where the monster is. If the attacker is using a melee or ranged attack, he picks a square and rolls. If the attacker chose the wrong square, nothing happens and the attack is wasted (personally, I have the attack be expended but wouldn't bother with a roll). If the attacker gets lucky and chooses the correct square, he makes an attack roll at a -5 penalty.

I guess it's up to a DM to decide what would happen if the attacker correctly chose a square and missed on the attack. Obviously, if you hit a hidden monster you know where it is, but some DMs might say because the attacker missed the hidden monster is still hidden. I'd say that the monster is no longer hidden, because a missed attack doesn't always mean a "whiff" - perhaps the invisible monster parried the blow, for example. Even if the monster dodged the blow, I'd say the quick movement of a dodge would kick up dust, make a sound, or do something else to reveal the monster's location.

If the attacker is actively looking for a hidden monster and fails, I'd say the attacker would know he failed - after all, he can't find the monster!

4. Is the attack roll made by the DM so that it doesn't give the attacker too much knowledge about whether he picked the wrong square or that the attacker's attack roll was too low to hit?

Again, it's up to the DM, and it depends on what you think a missed attack roll means and whether or not it's enough to reveal a hidden monster's location. You might try having the PC roll and giving you the result, then secretly subtracting 5. If it's a miss, and you want to keep the monster's location secret, you could say that nothing happened.

 

[Brys]

1. I believe that If the creature misses his initial stealth check vs Passive attacker Perception check then it is not hidden but if it is in TC/SC attacker knows what square it is in but takes a -5 penatly to hit. The creature can still try to hide afterwards I assume and another skill challenge occurs.

Ya. The -5 is strictly from having total concealment/superior cover. This only applies to melee and ranged attacks. Area and burst attacks ignore concealment, and cover is determined from the attack origin square (not necessarily the square of the attacker, especially if it's a ranged area attack).

2. If the creature wins the initial skill challenge (Stealth vs. Passive Perceptoin) and is hidden, then it indicates that the attacker that is actively looking for an invisible creature, as defined above, can make a new Perception Check. Ok is this another skill challenge vs. the hidden creature's already rolled stealth check or is it some other DC created by the DM?

The stealth check that the creature made is the DC that the perception check must pass. If the creature moves or does something requiring a new check, you recheck vs passive and this new stealth number is the target DC for the perception check.

3. If the attacker wins whatever skill challenge that is required in 2 above, then does he still have to "Pick a Square and Attack" or does he know what square the hidden creature is in and thus can attack that square with only a -5 penalty if the formerly hidden creature is still in TC/SC. Or if he wins that skill challenge does he only glean a general location and have to pick one of several squares given by the DM? Or does "Pick a Square and Attack" only apply if he loses whatever skill challenge is required in 2 above. And does he even know he lost that skill challenge?

The first one: he knows what square the hidden creature is in and can attack that square with only a -5 penalty if the formerly hidden creature is still in TC/SC.

4. Is the attack roll made by the DM so that it doesn't give the attacker too much knowledge about whether he picked the wrong square or that the attacker's attack roll was too low to hit?

Some people DM this way. I've always played with more transparency. ie, "The monster gives a wicked grin as he hears your foot scuff the floor. He whirls and shoots an arrow straight at your location." or "The monster looks confused as he peers into the darkness trying to figure out where you are. He fires an arrow blindly that shatters against the wall ten feet to your left (...just a bit outside...)."



Adding a question of my own:
Who wins ties? Is it always the person making the check? So, if Monster A has a passive perception of 15 and the Rogue makes a stealth check of 15, the Rogue is hidden, right? Assuming so, on its turn, Monster A rolls a perception check, gets a 10 and has an active check of 15. Since the DC of the check is 15 (Rogue's stealth check), the Rogue is now found, right?

 

[Damogag]

Thanks

Brys. I believe I read that if there is a tie you look at the modifier I guess in this case the one creatures stealth modifier and the other creature's perception modfier and whichever is higher wins the tie.

Thanks again guys for the help. The one thing that tripped me up was where under "Pick a Square and Attack" it says "the attacker chooses a square to attack, using whatever information it has gleaned about the enemy's location". I thought the gleaning came from a successful Perception Check under "Make a Perception Check". I'm not sure how he gleans anything if the creature is still hidden and invisible to the creature. If you said well you sense something in this corner and let him pick a square in that corner then it kind of defeats the purpose of being hidden (silent and invisible). Or you could say if you want to start shooting up the room even though you may nor may not have any reason to believe anything is in the room, just pick a random square.

Also, I guess the way it works if the creatures aren't hidden (just goofing off in a dark room, LOL, or fail their stealth checks) but they are still in Total Concealment, such as Kobolds in a dark room, the attacker can sense which square the creature(s) are in and takes a -5 penalty. The only other advantage would be that the attacker can't use any Opportunity Attacks against them until he can see them.

 

[DracoSuave]

Adding a question of my own:
Who wins ties? Is it always the person making the check? So, if Monster A has a passive perception of 15 and the Rogue makes a stealth check of 15, the Rogue is hidden, right? Assuming so, on its turn, Monster A rolls a perception check, gets a 10 and has an active check of 15. Since the DC of the check is 15 (Rogue's stealth check), the Rogue is now found, right?

Rolling against a passive score and getting a tie gives success to the one rolling. The passive score acts like any other DC.

Correction: The passive perception is treated like taking 10 on the roll. In the case of a tie, whoever has the highest modifier wins. If the modifiers are tied, reroll.

And as the stealth acts as a DC for the active perception check, the perceiver wins on a tie.

 

[MarkB]

One more thing to note: You only take the -5 penalty for Total Concealment when making a Ranged or Melee attack. Close or Area attacks suffer no penalty against hidden or concealed creatures, so long as the creature is within the affected area.

 

[nookiemonster]

"Whatever information it gleans" can mean that "the Invisible Man ended his move over in this square, and then turned invisible, and hasn't moved since, so I think he's in this square here." Without any Perception checks being necessary.