Iron Bands of Bilarro and Coup de Grace?

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Actually, by the printed rules, of course he would be. Then again, the rules (especially "hold person" ) was written way before the XPH and psionic powers hit the game....

In which case, do you believe a sorceror who knows Still Spell, Silent Spell, and Eschew Materials in the same situation is also helpless?

You are helpless (game condition) if you are bound or paralyzed.

In either case, you can take purely mental actions - including a Stilled, Silent, Eschewed spell or a psionic manifestation.

So, a helpless (game condition) sorceror or psion can still kill you, even at a very long range.

Doesn't change the fact that they are, in fact, helpless, and are a valid subject for a coup de grace.

 

[diaglo]

but pinned: isn't helpless according to conditions on the SRD.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

but pinned: isn't helpless according to conditions on the SRD.

Agreed. But then, you aren't limited to mental-only actions when you are pinned.

 

[uzagi_akimbo]

In which case, do you believe a sorceror who knows Still Spell, Silent Spell, and Eschew Materials in the same situation is also helpless?

You are helpless (game condition) if you are bound or paralyzed.

In either case, you can take purely mental actions - including a Stilled, Silent, Eschewed spell or a psionic manifestation.

So, a helpless (game condition) sorceror or psion can still kill you, even at a very long range.

Doesn't change the fact that they are, in fact, helpless, and are a valid subject for a coup de grace.

Their bodies are paralyzed, and as such helpless. If they can still take evasive or preventive actions through other means (ex flight, non-somatic + non-verbal magic or psioncs etc. etc. etc. ) , no situation for a CDG on a helpless victim (e.g. unmoving, defenseless and possibly unaware of any attack) exists . Or would you, for example consider someone currently residing on the Astral plane, and hence moving by the power of thought alone yet physically bound tightly incapable of evasive movement ? His has no control of the body, yet he can move away easily enough - with perfect maneuverability (MoP p49-50)

As for the more prime material situation - usually anyone capable of moving away while tightly bound would in all likelihood move away BEFORE someone attempted a CDG on the,, but in the case of simultaneous actions.. well, sorry, but IMHO the specifics of a situation allways have precendence over some generalistic definition. Especially one as loopholed as "helpless"

 

[KarinsDad]

As for the initial rule question about the "Iron Bands"

Generally, I would concur with the reading of anyone bound so tight as to become 'immobile' to be equally "disadvantaged" as someone being "helpless" through paralyzation etc.
BUT - lets use some common sense - a tightly held psion is still very much NOT helpless, and I would also assume a Beholder being bound by this neither dropping to the floor, nor being helpless enough as say, not to use his anti-magic eye to neutralize the item or simply disintegrate it with an eye-stalk beam.... So, someone who is capable of either escaping or seriously harming you while being physically immobilized (yes that sounds like being "pinned" to me) should not actually be treated as 'helpless'.

Except that ruling this way, you are also stating that a character bound in rope, chains, or manacles is also NOT helpless when helpless states "bound".

Helpless is not a mental problem in the case of bound, it is a physical one.

So, a psion bound in ropes is just as "helpless" according to the rules as a fighter. The psion has more options (manifesting a power, escape artist, strength check) than the fighter (escape artist, strength check), but he is still just as helpless, according to the definition of helpless, as the fighter.


This is not about common sense in a magical world. This is about the rules of the game.

 

[uzagi_akimbo]

Except that ruling this way, you are also stating that a character bound in rope, chains, or manacles is also NOT helpless when helpless states "bound".

Helpless is not a mental problem in the case of bound, it is a physical one.

So, a psion bound in ropes is just as "helpless" according to the rules as a fighter. The psion has more options (manifesting a power, escape artist, strength check) than the fighter (escape artist, strength check), but he is still just as helpless, according to the definition of helpless, as the fighter.


This is not about common sense in a magical world. This is about the rules of the game.

With the "helpless" rules being exceedingly shoddy in composition and execution, because there are dozens of possibilities where there exist paradoxical situations.

E.G.
You could try to bind an ooze with the "Iron Bands".. now is that being in any way inconvenienced by this ? Guess not - even if it cannot dissolve the bonds it will simply float through them.

Throw it at a Beholder. How is that creature supposed to have its movement impaired, if it doesn't even employ any limbs to move....? Or have its offensive powers limited ? Even if they are SLAs, just what exactly is a Beholder's compulsory somatic component in activating any SLA - hence is he helpless ? Or is his innate ability to fly in any direction at his leisure impaired ?

Throw it a fire, air or water-elemental..... Just what is being "bound" and inconvenienced, hence rendered immobile and possibly "helpless" ?

What happens if this thing is thrown at an incorporeal undead - say a shadow, wraith, ghost etc etc etc - and the 50/50 miss-chance for targeting an incorporeal being actually works out for the attack and you hit..... or while we are at it, a "blinking" creature... or a "phasing" one ?



"Helplessness" can be very situational , IMHO . And the rules about it are in very sorry state, atm. Starting at "helpless" = "motionless", extending into such wonderful areas like the un-categorized "paralysis" power of some monsters (like ghouls) etc etc etc - because WotC churned out new monsters, abilities and options without ever reworking the rules to take these into account.

I for one rather have a GM introduce/maintain some common sense IMCs, then follow slavishly down some road described by obviously insufficent rules. Makes for a much more enjoyable game - and keeps the suspension of utter disbelief in check.




BTW, the spell the "Iron Bands" employ in their creation - "Bigby's Grasping Hand" - only yields a result of "grappled". I wonder why an item created through the use of this spell should exceed the effect of the original magical.

 

[KarinsDad]

With the "helpless" rules being exceedingly shoddy in composition and execution, because there are dozens of possibilities where there exist paradoxical situations.

So is a character bound in ropes helpless or not?

What happens if this thing is thrown at an incorporeal undead - say a shadow, wraith, ghost etc etc etc - and the 50/50 miss-chance for targeting an incorporeal being actually works out for the attack and you hit..... or while we are at it, a "blinking" creature... or a "phasing" one ?

I agree that this item would not work against a lot of creatures.

But, how would another interpretation of this such as entangled or only immobile work any better against these creatures?

In any of the interpretations, either the item affects the creature as intended or it does not (i.e. either the DM rules they are immune or he does not. It is magic after all.).

BTW, the spell the "Iron Bands" employ in their creation - "Bigby's Grasping Hand" - only yields a result of "grappled". I wonder why an item created through the use of this spell should exceed the effect of the original magical.

I was wondering when someone was going to chime in with this.

How many "Helpless due to being bound" spells are you aware of in the PHB? There are a lot of items where they picked the next best spell they could find.

The classic example is a Bag of Holding at 2500 GP to 10,000 GP which uses Leomund's Secret Chest (at a cost of 5000 GP to create the chest and 50 GP to create the replica) to craft it (as opposed to using a simple dimensional spell like Rope Trick). If you are creating a lot of Bags of Holding, sure, you could re-use the chest and replica. But if you are only creating one, it is nonsensical.

This doesn't illustrate anything other than there is not a one to one relationship between many items and the spells used to create them. You have to use the description of the item, not the description of the spell used to create it.