Iron Bands of Bilarro and Coup de Grace?

[Hypersmurf]

It was a few years ago, on the previous version of the WotC boards, alas.

The argument was actually flawed at the time - in 3E, dead people couldn't take actions, because they were technically dying, and thus unconscious, and thus helpless.

But in 3.5, they tightened up the language of the dying condition, so now dead people are no longer dying, and can take actions.

-Hyp.

 

[PowerWordDumb]

But in 3.5, they tightened up the language of the dying condition, so now dead people are no longer dying, and can take actions.

I knew there was a reason I liked you.

 

[uzagi_akimbo]

KnowTheToe, often times a D&D adventuring group is out in the wilds, in a no-mans land where there is no law. In those situations, those with the might tend to make the law on the spot. Additionally, many adventuring groups have paladins or clerics (or others depending on local culture, etc) those characters have very real legal powers to judge and administer mortal justice. As a DM, I've had no problem with such things. Too often I see DM's stiffle their players' character's in-game responsabilities, etc. I can't imagine having a high level cleric, paladin, monk etc... without that person having some sort of legal power.

Well, kick-start your imagination and head for the history section of the local library.....

In most historical societies, unless they were theocratically ruled or theocratical dictatorships/tyarrnies, even high ranking priests/potentates only rarely held the power of worldy justice, and the ability to dish out "fitting" punishment. Unless they were either explicitly empowered to do so by the rulers (as many clerical inquisitors/investigators were during the medieval witch-hunts, and look how a "well-meaning" "lawful" and caring priesthood abused that entitlement - also abbeys/monasteries holding tracts of land with serfs working these had those power of "low-law" judgements for those lands alone. Which would be nowadays felonies and minor crimes, but definitely not crimes carrying the death penalty) or they were actually nobles themselves.
Ancient and medieval societies ( and most contemporary ones, as well ) were exceedinly leery to invest priesthoods with worldy power, and especially so, with the right to hold court and decide judical disputes through verdicts. And they were also very leery to enpower other people with the same privilege. The power over life and death (e.g. the right to pardon even a guiltyy and sentenced offender) used to be a tightly held boon.
Of course, even minor priests could be nobles - but that is an in-character empowerment, not a general rule. And not every noble had the right to be judge and jury for just anyone he encountered.
Unless, say, there was a lawful evil society, which empowered its dignitaries to dispense summary execution to a specific group of people - be they disenfranchised (slaves), foreigners, heretics or a racial minority. But even then some form of formality and acoountability would be included/implemented.


And I would very much call into doubt the degree of law-abiding displayed by any lawful priest, or even more so a paladin, slaying a helpless opponent in cold blood, if there was even a remote chance that he could be judged by the cleric's/paladin's superior(s) or a proper court etsablished by the PCs/area's sovereign(s). Lynching - while an infamous part of American legal history - was never legal nor an accepted method for dealing with crime. In fact, lynching was a crime, punishable by death, under the statutes of murder.....

Unless said opponent was already sentenced to summary execution and death by the proper authorities and until now evading execution of said sentence.
Or the paladin/cleric being especially charged and authorized to dispense death sentences as "due process" (which has terrific abusie-potential - both in-game and with regard to metagaming issues, ). Now, that is a "carte blanche" that any GM must choose to apply or deny to such characters.





As for the initial rule question about the "Iron Bands"

Generally, I would concur with the reading of anyone bound so tight as to become 'immobile' to be equally "disadvantaged" as someone being "helpless" through paralyzation etc.
BUT - lets use some common sense - a tightly held psion is still very much NOT helpless, and I would also assume a Beholder being bound by this neither dropping to the floor, nor being helpless enough as say, not to use his anti-magic eye to neutralize the item or simply disintegrate it with an eye-stalk beam.... So, someone who is capable of either escaping or seriously harming you while being physically immobilized (yes that sounds like being "pinned" to me) should not actually be treated as 'helpless'.

 

[Deset Gled]

I figured it might be worth looking at some other items to try and get a feel for the value associated with the Bands. None of this really matters for those of you that are trying to decipher the true meaning of the text, but I figure it could be pretty useful for balance analysis.

The Item in Question:

Iron Bands of Binding: When initially discovered, this very potent item appears to be a 3-inch-diameter rusty iron sphere with bandings on the globe. When the proper command word is spoken and the spherical iron device is hurled at an opponent, the bands expand and then contract to bind the target creature on a successful ranged touch attack. A single Large or smaller creature can be captured thus and held immobile until the command word is spoken to bring the bands into spherical form again. The creature can break (and ruin) the bands with a DC 30 Strength check or escape them with a DC 30 Escape Artist check. Iron bands of binding are usable once per day.
Strong evocation; CL 13th; Craft Wondrous Item, grasping hand; Price 26,000 gp;Weight 1 lb.

Other Items of Note (descending in price):

Drums of Panic: These drums are kettle drums (hemispheres about 1-1/2 feet in diameter on stands). They come in pairs and are unremarkable in appearance. If both of the pair are sounded, all creatures within 120 feet (with the exception of those within a 20-foot-radius safe zone around the drums) are affected as by a fear spell (Will DC 16 partial). Drums of panic can be used once per day.
Moderate necromancy; CL 7th; Craft Wondrous Item, fear; Price 30,000 gp;Weight 10 lb. for the pair.

Eyes of Doom: These crystal lenses fit over the user’s eyes, enabling him to cast doom upon those around him (one target per round) as a gaze attack, except that the wearer must take a standard action, and those merely looking at the wearer are not affected. Those failing a DC 11 Will save are affected as by the doom spell. If the wearer has only one lens, the DC of the saving throw is reduced to 10. However, if the wearer has both lenses, he gains the additional power of a continual deathwatch effect and can use fear (Will DC 16 partial) as a normal gaze attack once per week.
Moderate necromancy; CL 11th; Craft Wondrous Item, doom, deathwatch, fear; Price 25,000 gp.

Circlet of Blasting, Major: On command, this elaborate golden headband projects a blast of searing light (5d8 maximized for 40 points of damage) once per day.
Strong evocation; CL 17th; Craft Wondrous Item, Maximize Spell, searing light; Price 23,760 gp.

Rope of Entanglement: A rope of entanglement looks just like any other hempen rope about 30 feet long. Upon command, the rope lashes forward 20 feet or upward 10 feet to entangle a victim. An entangled creature can break free with a DC 20 Strength check or a DC 20 Escape Artist check.
The rope has AC 22, 12 hit points, and hardness 10, and it has damage reduction 5/slashing as well. The rope repairs damage to itself at a rate of 1 point per 5 minutes, but if a rope of entanglement is severed (all 12 hit points lost to damage), it is destroyed.
Moderate transmutation; CL 12th; Craft Wondrous Item, animate objects, animate rope, entangle; Price 21,000 gp; Weight 5 lb.

Horn of Blasting: This horn appears to be a normal trumpet. It can be sounded as a normal horn, but if the command word is spoken and the instrument is then played, it deals 5d6 points of sonic damage to creatures within a 40-foot cone and causes them to be deafened for 2d6 rounds (a DC 16 Fortitude save reduces the damage by half and negates the deafening). Crystalline objects and creatures take 7d6 points of sonic damage, with no save unless they’re held, worn, or carried by creatures (Will DC 16 negates).
If a horn of blasting is used magically more than once in a given day, there is a 20% cumulative chance with each extra use that it explodes and deals 10d6 points of damage to the person sounding it.
Moderate evocation; CL 7th; Craft Wondrous Item, shout; Price 20,000 gp; Weight 1 lb.

Feather Token: Whip: A token that forms into a huge leather whip and wields itself against any opponent desired just like a dancing weapon. The weapon has a +10 base attack bonus, does 1d6+1 points of damage, has a +1 enhancement bonus on attack and damage rolls, and a makes a free grapple attack (with a +15 attack bonus) if it hits. The whip lasts no longer than 1 hour.
Moderate conjuration; CL 12th; Craft Wondrous Item, major creation; 500 gp (whip).

Other Weapons of Note:

Flame Tongue: This is a +1 flaming burst longsword. Once per day, the sword can blast forth a fiery ray at any target within 30 feet as a ranged touch attack. The ray deals 4d6 points of fire damage on a successful hit.
Moderate evocation; CL 12th; Craft Magic Arms and Armor, scorching ray, and flame blade, flame strike, or fireball; Price 20,715 gp; Cost 10,515 gp + 816 XP.

Rapier of Puncturing: Three times per day, this +2 wounding rapier allows the wielder to make a touch attack with the weapon that deals 1d6 points of Constitution damage by draining blood. Creatures immune to critical hits are immune to the Constitution damage dealt by this weapon.
Strong necromancy; CL 13th; Craft Magic Arms and Armor, harm; Price 50,320 gp; Cost 25,320 gp + 2,000 XP.

Slaying Arrow: This +1 arrow is keyed to a particular type or subtype of creature. If it strikes such a creature, the target must make a DC 20 Fortitude save or die (or, in the case of unliving targets, be destroyed) instantly. Note that even creatures normally exempt from Fortitude saves (undead and constructs) are subject to this attack. When keyed to a living creature, this is a death effect (and thus death ward protects a target). To determine the type or subtype of creature the arrow is keyed to, roll on the table below.
A greater slaying arrow functions just like a normal slaying arrow, but the DC to avoid the death effect is 23.
Strong necromancy; CL 13th; Craft Magic Arms and Armor, finger of death (slaying arrow) or heightened finger of death (greater slaying arrow); Price 2,282 gp (slaying arrow) or 4,057 gp (greater slaying arrow); Cost 1,144 gp 5 sp + 91 XP (slaying arrow) or 2,032 gp + 162 XP (greater slaying arrow).


Now, most of the other Wondrous Items lead me to believe that allowing the Bands to render their target helpless is overpowered. Doing so means it's more or less a save-or-die item, but with a range touch attack instead of a save. Seems pretty powerful to me. AFAICT, there are no other Wondrous Items (at a similar price) that produce a similar hit-and-die effect. The Bands seem especially powerful compared to the Circlet of Blasting and Rope of Entanglement (which are only marginally less expensive, but far less useful). The Arrows of Slaying are the only item that suggest the Bands are reasonably priced for a "helpless" effect, but they are single use items that are also keyed to a specific type of creature, so it's hard to compare the two.

Given this comparison, I would rule (were I a DM faced with the item) that it renders a target immobile, but not helpless. Actually, as a DM I'd be even more likely to just make sure the items never pop up in the game. YMMV.

 

[Hypersmurf]

BUT - lets use some common sense - a tightly held psion is still very much NOT helpless...

So do you consider a psion who fails his save against Hold Person to be helpless (in the technical sense - vulnerable to CDG, etc)? He's still capable of purely mental actions...

-Hyp.

 

[ThirdWizard]

I would see the slaying of the the helpless as evil, unless the PCs are working on behalf the law and have been given the right to sentence the perp to death. There may be exceptions as you noted, but I hardly believe you will find a use like that on a daily or regular basis.

Actually that might be a case for Lawful versus Chaotic but not Good versus Evil. But, helpless due to a spell, magical item, or mundane means isn't that different. Besides, that's using a roleplaying restriction to balance a rule, which has been decided against in D&D design.

 

[MerakSpielman]

It also seems simple to other people that dead characters can still walk around and attack people. It's all house rules until it's explicit and written into the SRD.

As to how I'd handle it... well, that would be telling.

Right. Ruling that dead people can't move or act is a very common house rule, but around my neck of the woods we like to game by the rules as written.

So if the rules for Iron Bands just say the afflicted can't move, than that's the way it is!

Oh, and offhand, does anybody know what Large Giant has 6d8+36 Hit Dice, two claws that attack at +9, and regeneration 5? I forget.... But I'm sure it's applicable to this discussion somehow...

 

[Darkness]

But in 3.5, they tightened up the language of the dying condition, so now dead people are no longer dying, and can take actions.

Yep, I know.

 

[Gez]

"I see dead people. Performing standard actions like regular people. They don't see each other. They only read what they want to read in the rulebooks."

 

[uzagi_akimbo]

So do you consider a psion who fails his save against Hold Person to be helpless (in the technical sense - vulnerable to CDG, etc)? He's still capable of purely mental actions...

-Hyp.

Actually, by the printed rules, of course he would be. Then again, the rules (especially "hold person" ) was written way before the XPH and psionic powers hit the game.... And yes, I find the "nothing physical is gonna stop me from manifesting" approach of psionics to be rather irksome., one of the reasons while psion(ic)s are very rare indeed IMCs.

By a common sense approach - while the psion could not actually twitch his toes or wave his hand, he would be entirely free to simply levitate, teleport, fly or dimension door away, even if affected by a "hold person". Not even considering him stopping his opponent's breathing, blasting him to shreds, dissolving his mind or putting him outside the normal time-stream.... So, by common sense, yes, he wouldn't be helpless, but he would be "helpless" by the "rules" as written.

And that is the reason why there is a GM, who decides such ambivalences of the existing rules when their normal reading just does not make sense. Just like with the dead people,, who, by some shoddy editing, can now act at leisure...... despite what common sense might indicate.