Iron Bands of Bilarro and Coup de Grace?

[KarinsDad]

Does it count as helpless if you're still capable of casting as many stilled or quickened spells as you want, or do you have to be out of spells before you count as helpless?

Helpless does not mean that you cannot necessarily perform totally mental activities such as casting spells without spell components or manifesting psionic powers.

Paralyzation, for example, explicitly allows for totally mental activities, but you are still consider helpless when paralyzed. Bound and Held would as well.

Asleep, on the other hand, would not.

 

[KarinsDad]

Wait, now that I re-read the description of the item, it doesn't say you can't attack or cast spells. It just says you are held immobile, which means you can't move. Movement in D&D is very well-defined.

Yes it is, but this does not state that you lose your movement. It states that you are held immobile.

That means the same as being bound by the bands. No attacks. No spells with somatic components, etc. Exactly the same as if pinned where you cannot attack or cast spells, except that you are not grappled either.

It does not state entangled (where you can still attack and cast spells) and in fact, for you to lose movement with entangled, you have to be attached to something and here you are not.

There are only two ways to be "bond" by an object in DND, entangled and helpless, and this one only fits helpless.

 

[MerakSpielman]

Yes it is, but this does not state that you lose your movement. It states that you are held immobile.

That means the same as being bound by the bands. No attacks. No spells with somatic components, etc. Exactly the same as if pinned where you cannot attack or cast spells, except that you are not grappled either.

It does not state entangled (where you can still attack and cast spells) and in fact, for you to lose movement with entangled, you have to be attached to something and here you are not.

There are only two ways to be "bond" by an object in DND, entangled and helpless, and this one only fits helpless.

It makes none of these statements. You are interpreting based on what makes sense to you.

All it says is that you are immobile. "Immobile" means you cannot move. "Move," in D&D, means exiting one 5' square and entering another one.

I see no indication anywhere in the item description that states you cannot take standard actions, such as attacking, casting a spell, etc...

Please quote the relivent section of the item description if you disagree.

 

[KarinsDad]

It makes none of these statements. You are interpreting based on what makes sense to you.

All it says is that you are immobile. "Immobile" means you cannot move. "Move," in D&D, means exiting one 5' square and entering another one.

I see no indication anywhere in the item description that states you cannot take standard actions, such as attacking, casting a spell, etc...

Please quote the relivent section of the item description if you disagree.

I will quote the relevant section of Pinned instead:

"Held immobile (but not helpless) in a grapple."

What does held immobile mean here? Does it only mean that you cannot move as per movement?

NO

Why? Because you cannot do that when you are merely grappled. While grappled, you cannot just walk away. You have to break the grapple before you can move away. If your definition were correct, then you would be "held immobile" when grappling, but that is not the case.

Hence, "held immobile" while pinned means MORE than no movement while grappled.

It means that you cannot do anything except try to escape or cast a (mostly) mental spell when pinned. No attacks. No movement. Nothing else.

"You can attempt to cast a spell while grappling or even while pinned (see below), provided its casting time is no more than 1 standard action, it has no somatic component, and you have in hand any material components or focuses you might need. Any spell that requires precise and careful action is impossible to cast while grappling or being pinned. If the spell is one that you can cast while grappling, you must make a Concentration check (DC 20 + spell level) or lose the spell. You don’t have to make a successful grapple check to cast the spell."

"If You’re Pinned by an Opponent
When an opponent has pinned you, you are held immobile (but not helpless) for 1 round. While you’re pinned, you take a –4 penalty to your AC against opponents other than the one pinning you. At your opponent’s option, you may also be unable to speak. On your turn, you can try to escape the pin by making an opposed grapple check in place of an attack. You can make an Escape Artist check in place of your grapple check if you want, but this requires a standard action. If you win, you escape the pin, but you’re still grappling."


Pinned also does not have an entry on the Favorable and Unfavorable Attack Conditions Attack Roll Modifiers table because you cannot attack when pinned. You can attack while grappled, but the loss of mobility from being pinned denies you the ability to attack while pinned.

If you cannot attack or cast (most) spells or move when held immobile when pinned, the same applies to the Iron Bands which also state that they bind you, hence, you are bound and immobile AND helpless.


The other aspect of this is that the bands allow you to break out as per bound (strength check or escape artist), not as per pinned (escape artist or grappling check). The reason is that you are going against an object, not a creature. Grappling and Pinned are illogical because those are conditions created by creatures, not objects. Entangled or Helpless are the only logical object versus creature conditions here, and this definitely does not meet the criteria for Entangled.


The question for you here is: Is a creature helpless if he is tied up with ropes? If so, why? If not, why?

 

[Kitsune]

Claiming that the big iron bands wrapping someone up just makes them immobile is a silly argument. Under that definition, someone trapped in metal bands can be swinging a greatsword around no problem. That's absurd, the item's description clearly states that the target gets covered in metal bindings, and you can't very well be shooting that longbow under those circumstances, can you?

If you're tied up with ropes, you're helpless.
If you're tied up with strips of metal, you're helpless.

That would be why the description of helplessness includes the mention that being bound applies.

 

[Doctor Shaft]

It seems pretty clear to me that you're helpless after getting held immobile by these weapons.

Another argument for the fire:

If you're not helpless, still no one has offered any alternative status except "you can't move." Okay, so I can't move... where's the rest of my penalties? Why can't I move? Are my arms wrapped up? Are only my legs wrapped up? And wait, if I can still swing a sword around... then why can't I just hop around the map? Why isn't my movement speed just reduced if these iron bands don't totally imbolize me... i.e make me helpless?

If I can still swing my greatsword without penalty... then why can't i just go prone and take the movement penalty there?

If you're not helpless, you have to offer us a sufficient penalty that comes with being caught in iron bands.

I've never heard of a spell that stops a character from movement... BUT doesn't affect my AC or attack rolls in the slightest.

Unless that's entangled... but it doesn't say that at all.

 

[ThirdWizard]

How about: the magical item has no effect beyond DM caveat because it lists no penalties outside of flavor text descriptions. It is a purely fluff magical item and its power is completely up to the discretion of the DM. Whomever designed it needs to reread the PHB and DMG in entirety and then write a new description. By tomorrow morning. Go!

 

[KarinsDad]

Whomever designed it needs to reread the PHB and DMG in entirety and then write a new description. By tomorrow morning. Go!

No kidding!

Unfortunately, the original designer probably no longer works at WotC.

 

[UltimaGabe]

All it says is that you are immobile. "Immobile" means you cannot move. "Move," in D&D, means exiting one 5' square and entering another one.

I see no indication anywhere in the item description that states you cannot take standard actions, such as attacking, casting a spell, etc...

Ahem... allow me to interject something.

That is the worst ruling I've ever seen in my life, and I personally think that the entire world would be better off if rules-layer rulings such as that one were burned, shot, stabbed, and given cancer (assuming it were possible to physically abuse a ruling). What is wrong with you people? How can you honestly stand behind an argument with so much evidence otherwise? I understand that D&D is a complex game with conditions and specific names and so on, but come on- you and other rules lawyers such as yourself have foregone any sort of common sense (or even intelligence in a rudimentary manner) and you reinforce your own meaningless arguments with evidence that supports nothing. "You're held immobile. It doesn't say you can't attack, so that means you can." It also doesn't say that you don't gain Divine Ranks by being affected by the item, so does that mean that every time someone's hit with an Iron Bands of Bilarro, they become Thor? Is "immobile" even defined in D&D as not being able to take move actions? Because as far as I can tell, it doesn't. In addition to all of my personal (and not-so-personal) attacks, your only piece of faulty evidence doesn't have any backing to it. (Big surprise.) Rules-lawyering to the extent you've taken it is just ridiculous, and I pity you for having to use such reasoning.

Back to the topic at hand...

26,000 gp for a once-per-day chance at maybe (just maybe) being able to kill one person. What's the big deal? I doubt anybody has 26,000 gp as pocket change at any reasonable level, and by the time you do, there are so many ways to do such nastier things. And besides, every DM should know that one tough opponent is going to be easy to take down if everyone concentrates on it anyway, so DMs should prepare accordingly. If they manage to take down one of the five powerful enemies within the first round of combat and they only have to deal with four of them, good for them. It still shouldn't be much easier. As with many issues, I think this one is only as bad as a DM lets it be.

 

[Darkness]

That is the worst ruling I've ever seen in my life

Easy there, mate.

BTW, you didn't see the "dead - can still take actions" (or some such) thread on the WotC boards, then?