Iron Bands of Bilarro and Coup de Grace?

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

As for the "bound thing", the "binds the target" is flavor text, not rule text.

Prove it.

I don't think you can.

Seriously, I believe the Iron Bands bind you in a rules-sense as well as in a flavor-sense.

 

[Derren]

The "bound" in the helpless description is a status. The bound in the Iron Band description is a action which results in beeing held immobile (status). Simple reading will reveal that to you.

Nowhere in the description it does say that the target is bound (status).

 

[KarinsDad]

The "bound" in the helpless description is a status. The bound in the Iron Band description is a action which results in beeing held immobile (status). Simple reading will reveal that to you.

Nowhere in the description it does say that the target is bound (status).

So, if they are not bound and helpless, what are they?

They are not Grappled because it does not say so.

They are not Pinned because it does not say so.

They are not Ability Drained, Blinded, Blown Away, Checked, Confused, Cowering, Dazed, Dazzled, Dead, Deafened, Disabled, Dying, Energy Drained, Entangled, Exhausted, Fascinated, Fatigued, Flat-Footed, Frightened, Incorporeal, Invisible, Knocked Down, Nauseated, Panicked, Paralyzed, Petrified, Prone, Shaken, Sickened, Stable, Staggered, Stunned, or Unconscious because it does not say so.

So, what are they? You cannot just say that they are not Helpless without saying what they are.

They are bound as per the description of Helpless.

They are not bound as per the description of Entangled. Entangled characters are also not held immobile and can still fight.

Grappling and Pinned do not have bound descriptions and specifically are forms of combat that require an attacker.

Only Helpless and Entangled have bound descriptions and Entangle creatures are not held immobile.

The rules are pretty clear here. But if you find a rule that contradicts this, please post it.

 

[Derren]

Yes, the rules are clear. They are Held Immobile.
And the only other instance of someone held immobile is grappling.

And that grappling don't say that the character is bound is logical, because he isn't. Bound would mean he is helpless and you can't make someone helpless with grappling.

And I would like you to post where it says in the description of the bands that the characters are bound.

But fact is, the description of the bands are unclear and it is impossible to find an exact ruling on it.

The DM has to decide for himself if he wants a 1/day touch attack->helpless item for 26.000gc or a 1/day touch attack->pinned item.

 

[Arravis]

Derren wrote: And I would like you to post where it says in the description of the bands that the characters are bound.

From the SRD:
"the bands expand and then contract to bind the target creature"

From the Merriam-Webster dictionary:
"Main Entry: bind
Pronunciation: 'bInd
Function: verb
Inflected Form(s): bound /'baund/; bind·ing"

 

[KarinsDad]

Yes, the rules are clear. They are Held Immobile.
And the only other instance of someone held immobile is grappling.

And that grappling don't say that the character is bound is logical, because he isn't. Bound would mean he is helpless and you can't make someone helpless with grappling.

And I would like you to post where it says in the description of the bands that the characters are bound.

But fact is, the description of the bands are unclear and it is impossible to find an exact ruling on it.

The problem with your position here is that the item does state that it binds the character.

Your rules misinterpretation is that the item states "Held Immobile" and the Pinned description states "Held immobile (but not helpless) in a grapple" (the Grappled description does not state this). But, the item does not state that creature is "Held immobile in a grapple", pinned, in a grapple, or "not helpless". It doesn't state any of these.

Plus, grappled is a specific condition where one creature attacks another.

When objects wrap around creatures, they are either entangled or helpless.

All held immobile characters are helpless EXCEPT pinned ones. Since the item does not state that it is the special held immobile state of pinned, it is not. The item does state that it binds creatures.

Bound characters, on the other hand, are helpless, just like asleep, held or paralyzed ones.

"the bands expand and then contract to bind the target creature"

"A helpless character is paralyzed, held, bound, sleeping, unconscious, or otherwise completely at an opponent's mercy."


Bound characters are not grappled. Bound characters are not pinned. Bound creatures are "tied up" with rope, chains, manacles, etc.

Bound characters cannot even be entangled because although there can still be bonds on entangled creatures, the creatures is ensnared, not bound. Plus, entangled characters can attack whereas a "held immobile" character cannot.


This is not in any way unclear, but it might be a bit obscure.

 

[Derren]

Derren wrote: And I would like you to post where it says in the description of the bands that the characters are bound.

From the SRD:
"the bands expand and then contract to bind the target creature"

As I thought you have left out the next sentence.

"A single Large or smaller creature can be captured thus and held immobile until the command word is spoken to bring the bands into spherical form again"

So, the binding doesn't result in a bound status but in an immobile status.

 

[Arravis]

At the heart of this is the issue that there isn't an "immobile" status in d20. The choice to me seems simple.

A) The creature is immobile, a status that doesn't exist in d20 except in the very specific circumnstance of creature on creature grapple.

B) The creature is helpless, a status that is documented and clearly defined.

 

[MerakSpielman]

Does it count as helpless if you're still capable of casting as many stilled or quickened spells as you want, or do you have to be out of spells before you count as helpless?

 

[MerakSpielman]

Wait, now that I re-read the description of the item, it doesn't say you can't attack or cast spells. It just says you are held immobile, which means you can't move. Movement in D&D is very well-defined.